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The big jenova conspiracy

Posted: 3rd July 2009 21:58

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I was looking over some messages and i am curious as to the truth:

Did sephiroth controll genova? or did genova controll sephiroth?

Some say that genova was in controll the whole time.


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Posted: 3rd July 2009 22:24

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Well looking strictly at FFVII, I'd say that Sephiroth is the one that took control, because he uses fragments of Jenova to delay Cloud and otherwise mess with him. But then Advent Children goes off on this mommy dearest BS that makes him look downright embarrassing, so I guess it's your call.
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Posted: 3rd July 2009 22:28

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Quote (Ruin's Fate @ 3rd July 2009 22:24)
Well looking strictly at FFVII, I'd say that Sephiroth is the one that took control, because he uses fragments of Jenova to delay Cloud and otherwise mess with him. But then Advent Children goes off on this mommy dearest BS that makes him look downright embarrassing, so I guess it's your call.

The problem is,there was also a video of sephiroth within the ice and the black materia is given to him within the ice and then all the weapons that were stored away turned themselves on and started roaming the world and attacking,especially ultima.

And if jenova is an alien lifeform,it is possible that it is psychic and highly powerfull right? i mean there was a comment that the proof that jenova is in controll is all the fights with jenova as in:Jenova death,jenova life,jenova rebirth.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 3rd July 2009 22:29

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Posted: 3rd July 2009 22:31

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The planet created the WEAPONs as a defense mechanism. Fit hit the shan when Sephiroth got the black materia, and the world knew it was in trouble, so it released the WEAPONs. Thing is, Shinra was also a threat to the planet, so they attacked them first.
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Posted: 3rd July 2009 23:22

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Quote (Ruin's Fate @ 3rd July 2009 22:31)
The planet created the WEAPONs as a defense mechanism. Fit hit the shan when Sephiroth got the black materia, and the world knew it was in trouble, so it released the WEAPONs. Thing is, Shinra was also a threat to the planet, so they attacked them first.

That is true in fact i am positive there could be no other reason.

I mean afterall:

Sephiroth and shinra are the 2 biggest threats to earth.


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Posted: 6th July 2009 00:31

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mm. I dont remember very well this part. when cloud gives sephiroth the black materia. and hojo start's talking about the jenova reunion and everything.

but i think Jenova didnt control Sephiroth as she controlled her other muppets. cuz sephiroth was the perfect proyect or whatever. but at some point she does.
anyways. im certain that Sephiroth can't control jenova.
yeah it's true he uses part of her body in the game, but that's because jenova is semi-dead or in comma or whatever. but she isnt like fully healed ( the war with the ancients stuff). but sephiroth CANT control her.
she is just awasome. I'd say.
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Posted: 6th July 2009 01:17

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My impression:

Sephiroth, despite being a fairly decent guy beforehand, is all messed up due to Hojo's experiments.

He is then, more or less, a servant of the will of JENOVA, a role that he carries out much better than any of the other reunion Sephiroth clones.

So I would say that JENOVA dictated the general direction of what was to happen, while Sephiroth was the one who went about carrying out what needed to be done.

JENOVA is some type of other-worldly lifeform, which has been ruining other planets on its journey through the cosmos. It is super-powerful: it wiped out the Cetra, who weren't pushovers themselves, so that they barely had time to seal it away.

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Posted: 6th July 2009 05:44

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I'd have to throw in the argument that perhaps it was Hojo who was in fact in some semblance of control. It was he that put a little bit of Jenova in everyone that was the catalyst for Sephiroth, Cloud and all the clones and their whole reunion business.

It's not so much that he had a direct hand in the outcome since once he implanted these cells he took out the popcorn and sat back to watch, but at the same time, they were all playing out an experiment for him in the long run.

Jenova was just an unwitting tool, I'd say. Well, perhaps not unwitting. The same could be said for Sephiroth too. The only truly unwitting tool was Cloud til the near finale when he finally got over his ish and got control over his derailed life and said "Eff no!" and went Sephiroth = stabbed.

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Posted: 8th July 2009 23:42

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This used to be in the Wikipedia entry for Sephiroth. Take it for what it's worth, the fact that it was removed might tell you something, but it claims to be citing an authoritative source:

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The Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, littered with information directly from the creators of Final Fantasy VII, stated that Sephiroth "was not content to become a mere puppet and assumed position of her mind and will." This implies that Sephiroth's appearances stem from him invoking his appearance through Jenova's cells, which are also stated to have shapeshifting properties.
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Posted: 10th July 2009 02:21

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But didn't Jenova go about from planet to planet destroying everything? I thought her/it and Sephiroth sort of joined together.

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Posted: 11th July 2009 19:05

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Well, I think it's pretty clear they joined together in some respect, it's just that apparently the Ultimania Omega guide (where it's not enough to be just "Ultimania" or "Omega") says that Sephiroth was the dominant personality. I mean, it makes sense to me, when you think about it, since most of the Jenovas that were running around the planet took Sephiroth's form.

But I don't actually own this guide, have never read it, and it looks out of print. So I can't verify that it's an authoritative source "littered with information directly from the creators." Again, I took this from Wikipedia, which is not the most reliable source to begin with, and it was ultimately edited out.
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Posted: 12th July 2009 11:25

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Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 11th July 2009 19:05)
Well, I think it's pretty clear they joined together in some respect, it's just that apparently the Ultimania Omega guide (where it's not enough to be just "Ultimania" or "Omega") says that Sephiroth was the dominant personality.  I mean, it makes sense to me, when you think about it, since most of the Jenovas that were running around the planet took Sephiroth's form.

But I don't actually own this guide, have never read it, and it looks out of print.  So I can't verify that it's an authoritative source "littered with information directly from the creators."  Again, I took this from Wikipedia, which is not the most reliable source to begin with, and it was ultimately edited out.

So when sephiroth was messing with cloud's mind that was really him? or was he under controll of jenova?

Just out of curiosity

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This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 12th July 2009 14:04

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Posted: 12th July 2009 23:50

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I'm thinking of it as a symbiotic relationship between Sephiroth and Jenova... So in that case, I'm going to say it was Sephiroth messing with Cloud, but that it helped serve Jenova's end, which Sephiroth has become a part of.

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Posted: 13th July 2009 18:04

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 12th July 2009 23:50)
I'm thinking of it as a symbiotic relationship between Sephiroth and Jenova... So in that case, I'm going to say it was Sephiroth messing with Cloud, but that it helped serve Jenova's end, which Sephiroth has become a part of.

So in truth sephiroth wasn't fully in controll?

i wouldn't be surprised if jenova had some influence even if it is minor after the time he fused.


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Posted: 30th July 2009 16:47

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sephiroth thought that jenova was his mom so thats why it seems so likely that jenova controlled him( but didn't).
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Posted: 31st August 2009 06:59

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sephy controled jenova i mean he wouldnt be able to make those weard jenova things if he was contralled

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Posted: 11th September 2009 00:40

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Personally, I believe that JENOVA was the one in control. She broke out of the Shinra HQ. Remember the trail of blood that went all through the HQ leading to the top floor? That was JENOVA. As previously stated, she had the abiltity to shapeshift, therefore, it took the appearance of Sephiroth to lure Cloud to the "Reunion". He had JENOVA cells in him, so he would have to be there.

The various times we see Sephiroth throughout the game before making it to the North Crater, he engages us in battle but in the form of JENOVA. This leads me to believe that she attacks in her normal form after appearing as Sephiroth.

She, ultimately, had the ability to control every one of her "offspring" or "spawn". It also seems logical that since JENOVA created Sephiroth, that she controls him too. She is the mastermind behind all of their work, albeit she didn't intend to have Hojo inject her cells within the various participants - she just played with the cards she was dealt.

happy.gif My opinion..

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Posted: 18th September 2009 17:25
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I am not sure If I am correct but in my memory there was Jenova above Bizzaro Sephiroths head and she looked like some puppet player or so.
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Posted: 18th September 2009 23:00

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jenova and sephiroth had two different goals. jenova only want it to detroy everything in order to create a new world elsewhere using the planet as a vessel. sephiroth was seeking godly powers by absorbing the spirit energy the planet would use to heal after meteor's devastation. sephiroth used jenova in the game to acquire the black materia, but he never controlled the WEAPONs, reason why there was a huge barrier up north. now in the movie it was more like sephiroth and jenova's spirit energy had merged in the lifestream thus becoming one, in the end i guess they just want it to become one with the planet.

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Posted: 5th October 2009 18:19

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My best guess is that Jenova had completely dominated Sephiroth, much like it tried to do with Cloud, making Jenova the one in control of it all. We know that it wanted to destroy all life, it makes sense that it's objective was to absorb that life into itself to make itself more powerful, but we never find out for sure if that objective was just Sephiroth's or Jenova's as well. I'd guess that it was Jenova's.
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Posted: 8th October 2009 02:13
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Just finished the game again today, and here's what I took from my experiences with FF7.

<<Spoilers>>

Sephiroth Died, 5 years ago, at the reactor. Cloud took up Zack's Buster Sword, and ran him through. That is when Sephiroth Died. Prior to this, the Jenova Cells in Sephiroth (not yet in Cloud or Zack, not potentially any of the other clones, as Hojo alludes to trying to Recreate his Sephiroth experiment) had driven him mad; this is the only control JENOVA had in the matter. Convinced that his Mother was Jenova (when in fact his parents were Hojo and Lucrecia) and that he was created in the same manner of the Nibelwolf Monster (in the Nibelhiem Reactor vessels) when he was not, Sephiroth stopped being a legendary warrior, and basically went mad for power and destruction; that was the JENOVA in him.

In the lifestream, Like Jenova, Sephiroth wasn't all of this world, and always maintained his own consciousness because he couldn't return to the planet because he wasn't 100% of the planet. Likewise, Jenova, when killed by the cetra, had to be sealed up because She could not "die" persay. Sephiroth took on all the knowledge of the Lifestream and ressurected himself. He then broke into the Shinra building and Stole Jenova. That explains his Sword in the back of the Shinra President.

He then kept jenova with him kind of like a maniac killer will keep the tongues of thier victims. For personal and creepy reasons. Jenova was still useful to him, as a dangerous toy to mess with Cloud, but She was not in control. Sephiroth, with the knowledge he had gained from the Lifestream, as well as his strongest link to Jenova, kind of had a "radio link" to everyone else with Jenova in them. Cloud and Zack are Alluded to as the most "infected" with Jenova; The results could not properly be seen in Zack due to his early demise, but Hojo assumed that Cloud had also failed. I discern this by talking to all the "clones". The higher the number, the later on the experiment (unless Hojo had no concept of chronologic order) and also, the more fluently they speak/understand sephiroth/understand what's going on.

So Sephiroth could control the Jenova part of cloud. This is because those 5 years ago, Cloud left Tifa at the reactor and went back to Nibelhiem, and the Flames overcame him. Moments Later, Zangan told Zack to check on the house Next to cloud. We're not shown this, But presumably Zack only pulled Cloud out of the fires. Then we're told that the shinra showed up, under Hojo's command. Zangan ran to the reactor and rescued Tifa and took her to Midgar. Zack trusted the Shinra, but Hojo overcame them both, and turned them into the first Sephiroth Experiments (after sephiroth himself).

The reason Hojo becomes a little crazy at the end and tries to help sephiroth by firing the cannon a second time is because he's injected himself with Jenova, and sephiroth can then control Hojo through that. What I dont understand is why Sephiroth didn't wake up to the fact he was born of Lucrecia and Hojo. Maybe he did, but because of the Jenova from birth, he still saw himself as unique and all powerful.

Hence his search for divine path.

That about right? (sorry about the long post!)
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Posted: 19th October 2009 07:45

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Here is another question to ask:

Was sephiroth in fact weak when he fought cloud in the end?

Or was that how he trully was in general,and without jenova he was weak?

I heard some people say that the reason he was so weak is because he just awoke from a long slumber.


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Posted: 23rd October 2009 03:35

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..The mind body and Spirit Jenova can use those things to take her control. And Jenova could of used the shadow of Sephiroth to haunt Cloud's mind and lead him like a puppet/ tool into the Reunion ceremony.. but then why give the Black Materia to the real Sephiroth ? If Jenova was controlling Sephiroth and Cloud wouldn't she transform into her identity and let Cloud give the Black Materia to her.. ??

But the ancients/ Professor Gast say that a long time ago Jenova disguised herself as loved ones and slaughted most of the ancient race.. so she can transform into anybody and she does transform her self into Sephiroth as Cloud says and figures out before the climax at the Northern Crater...

But believe that Jenova is in control of Sephiroth because Sephiroth had the Jenova cells injected inside him. It was what lead him to destroy and burn up Nibelheim. Jenova was what made Sephiroth become screwed up and evil.
Jenova lead Sephiroth on the path of destruction and make him want the Black Materia to be summoned. But also believe that he partly wanted the Materia to be summoned because he wanted revenge towards Cloud for putting him into the Mako Lifestream..

But does it really matter who's in control ? Because the real villain of the game is really Professor Hojo if you think more about it..

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Posted: 4th November 2009 23:28

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I dont really think either controlled eachother. I think it was more Sephiroth getting himself to believe something, then "mother" "wanting"(is she alive?), which led to the events in the game.
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Posted: 7th November 2009 16:34
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I remember reading somewhere that the Ultimania guide ACTUALLY said Jenova was brain-dead. So that's impossible if that's true.

Also we all know Sephiroth was never 'free' for a good deal of the game, he was frozen in Lifestream (Aka: The Materia crystal seen at Northern Crater).

We also know Sephiroth is skilled in manipulating things with his mind (as seen with mind-screwing Cloud).


What would this imply?

Answer: Sephiroth has gained a level of Psionic (Telekenisis, Psionic Empathy (mental imprinting), etc) powers from his gaining vast knowledge travelling the life stream.

Sephiroth uses this to first gain control of the Jenova Carcass, which is brain dead. Using this, he causes the Massacre in Shinra Central. He is able to summon his Masamune to the Jenova body, which, using his abilities, impliments the image of himself over Jenova's body, tricking president shinra into believing it's him.

Every time the heros encounter Sephiroth, he is implimenting his image over Jenova's body. He only loses this in cases of Jenova's "rage", in which case he loses control of the body, and it begins to attack on it's own (Jenova boss fights).

When he is finally freed, he instead changes his own appearance by implimenting the existance of Bizarro and Savior/Seraphim into the Heros minds.

Sephiroth is controlling everything, thinking his thoughts are gifted to him by Jenova, and she's asking him to guide her. This is him being delusional. You have more knowledge than your mind could normally contain crammed in your head, it would drive you, and most likely Sephiroth, insane.

Of course, this is all one giant theory, but has no sincere weakpoints in it. It would explain his floating, teleporting, etc, all through use of Telekenisis.

Edit (3 technically): Anyhow we all know Sephiroth's defenses/power became 'lesser' as his forms were beaten, representing his weakening mental strength. Bizarro appears -far- more scary and powerful than Seraphim, and eventually Sephiroth couldn't do anything except a last-ditch chance to beat Cloud. Why would he not attack Cloud if he was all physical? Answer is he was always fighting mentally. Defeating Seraphim destroyed his body, so he gathered his mind to finish it.

This is just my belief anyhow.

This post has been edited by Katoma on 12th November 2009 20:21
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Posted: 8th November 2009 01:55

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I never thought of it that way Katoma, but that's a damn fine analysis!
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Posted: 12th November 2009 14:26
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I've finished this a while ago, and I am playing it again upon finding it.

However, I still remember my thoughts on the Sephiroth/Jenova relationship.


Jenova, when it hit the earth, had nothing in it's thoughts but destruction. Indeed, it was simply acting on primal instincts. When it was defeated, it was rejected from the lifestream, as it wasn't from this planet, so they kept the body in the Nibel Reactor.

Well, most of it.

Hojo, hearing about the now dead Jenova, became intrigued about it's powers, and ran many experiments using the cells of Jenova. As many were failures, probably due to the bodies being too developed to accept new cells, Hojo decided to take his studies further into depravity, injecting Jenova cells into the fetus of Dr. Lucrecia Cresent, and Sephiroth was born, killing her in the process.

Sephiroth was mostly human, but part alien due to the Jenova cells inside of him. Kept blissfully ignorant of this, he went into the SOLDIER corps., his genes making him a superior fighter, and sending him to the top. When he went to the Nibel Reactor, he saw Jenova's body there, and made the connection from the alien to his supposed mother's name, Jenova. He assumed that she was one of the mako beasts in the reactor, and thought of himself as a monster. With this in mind, he scoured the libraries of Nibelheim, finding more and more information on Jenova and the Cetra.

Unfortunately, the information was incomplete, and he thought he was one of the Cetra, kept down by the humans. With this in mind, he went to the reactor and freed the body of Jenova.

Though the body was dead, her influence still washed over him, plunging his mind deeper into insanity. Though he was killed by Cloud, he had too much Jenova cells in him to merely disappear, and it followed his energy in the lifestream like pollution. When he was reborn, he was born into the exact same form, looking for his "Mother", the one he thought created him. He found that the body was being held at SHIN-RA HQ (Sidenote - The reason Cloud went OMGWTFBRAINSPLODED at seeing Jenova was from her influence washing over him and reacting to his cells), and broke her free, killing the human that imprisoned her.

I'm assuming Jenova's first appearance was by shapeshifting into what she thought was the species of the planet (The Cetra). This gives her the woman's form. The other ones were manifestations of her cells, being reborn, hence BIRTH, LIFE, DEATH, even a version of her being created unnaturally, SYNTHESIZED.

So, nobody was pulling the strings, Sephiroth was doing what he thought would please his "Mother", and Jenova was dead, so it couldn't have controlled anyone consiously.
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Posted: 12th November 2009 20:19
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Quote (Ongakutronic @ 12th November 2009 10:26)
I've finished this a while ago, and I am playing it again upon finding it.

However, I still remember my thoughts on the Sephiroth/Jenova relationship.


Jenova, when it hit the earth, had nothing in it's thoughts but destruction. Indeed, it was simply acting on primal instincts. When it was defeated, it was rejected from the lifestream, as it wasn't from this planet, so they kept the body in the Nibel Reactor.

Well, most of it.

Hojo, hearing about the now dead Jenova, became intrigued about it's powers, and ran many experiments using the cells of Jenova. As many were failures, probably due to the bodies being too developed to accept new cells, Hojo decided to take his studies further into depravity, injecting Jenova cells into the fetus of Dr. Lucrecia Cresent, and Sephiroth was born, killing her in the process.

Sephiroth was mostly human, but part alien due to the Jenova cells inside of him. Kept blissfully ignorant of this, he went into the SOLDIER corps., his genes making him a superior fighter, and sending him to the top. When he went to the Nibel Reactor, he saw Jenova's body there, and made the connection from the alien to his supposed mother's name, Jenova. He assumed that she was one of the mako beasts in the reactor, and thought of himself as a monster. With this in mind, he scoured the libraries of Nibelheim, finding more and more information on Jenova and the Cetra.

Unfortunately, the information was incomplete, and he thought he was one of the Cetra, kept down by the humans. With this in mind, he went to the reactor and freed the body of Jenova.

Though the body was dead, her influence still washed over him, plunging his mind deeper into insanity. Though he was killed by Cloud, he had too much Jenova cells in him to merely disappear, and it followed his energy in the lifestream like pollution. When he was reborn, he was born into the exact same form, looking for his "Mother", the one he thought created him. He found that the body was being held at SHIN-RA HQ (Sidenote - The reason Cloud went OMGWTFBRAINSPLODED at seeing Jenova was from her influence washing over him and reacting to his cells), and broke her free, killing the human that imprisoned her.

I'm assuming Jenova's first appearance was by shapeshifting into what she thought was the species of the planet (The Cetra). This gives her the woman's form. The other ones were manifestations of her cells, being reborn, hence BIRTH, LIFE, DEATH, even a version of her being created unnaturally, SYNTHESIZED.

So, nobody was pulling the strings, Sephiroth was doing what he thought would please his "Mother", and Jenova was dead, so it couldn't have controlled anyone consiously.

Your theory however lacks the key Theory-screwer that everyone forgets: Seph was sealed in Materia Crystal in north Crater. Your theory works off a bad basis and lacks a lot of hold over a lot of the story and it's mainstay points. The whole theory falls apart when you put it off that Sephiroth was at Shinra HQ, an impossibility.

Jenova's body was also confirmed never dead, just brain dead in one of the many Ultimania interpretations. We know she's alive the whole time as seen by the many events. However being mind dead, it could only move subtly, which made escape impossible until Seph's possession. Jenova reacted to the Cetra nearby, Aeris, which caused it to truly become 'alive' again.


Another intepretation actually of the Birth-Life-Death of Jenova, is actually from it's mental state 'reawakening' over the course of the game in it's attempt to finish what it started: Killing the Cetra.

Being close to Aeris, it subtly awakened and raged, resulting in Jenova's first true "Birth" of life against since it's Sealing eons ago. When Killing Aeris, Jenova was "Living", it finally finished it's purpose. And so, with the last Cetra dead, it lost it's purpose and simply became a Brain-Dead Puppet again, leading to Jenova's True "Death" of Mind as it simply evolved onwards and became simply a tool.


Edit: Oh, and a Fun booster to my theory: it is a known fact that Sephiroth is stronger during the Final Boss Fight (Bizarro + Savior/Seraphim) with Cloud in your party (he has more HP to be exact). This would back up the fact that Sephiroth is a mental battler. It's easier to manipulate people who have something that links you to them in their mind, this often includes a Spell (in many fantasy sources) that allows you constant access to the mind, a certain Blood Trait (Twins have been known throughout history to be believed of Psychic links), and in this case, they both Share Jenova Cells, the perfect medium.

Storywise, this would be represented as Sephiroth tricking Cloud into dealing less damage or not making as deep/strong blows subconsciously, hence, more HP because he's taking less.

Edit 2: And it would also be, really, the most logical explaination behind Seph giving that mass Illusion of Nibelheim Burning to show them the picture of Zack, Cloud, Tifa, And Seph. That's a direct mental implant trick. Classic Psionic Empathy (Mental Implanting) at one of it's most basic.

This post has been edited by Katoma on 12th November 2009 20:29
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Posted: 12th November 2009 22:48

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So, all of the Sephiroth apparitions so to speak, were they illusions created by Sephy through Jenova?
This thread is fantastic because me and my sister have been having an ongoing debate about this for about a year.
So I'm guessing, Sephiroth didn't technically have Psychic ish powers, but if he controlled Jenova that meant he was using her powers through her?
It's all quite confusing :]

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*Sigh*....Times are tough
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Posted: 13th November 2009 15:39
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Quote (ktk3 @ 12th November 2009 18:48)
So, all of the Sephiroth apparitions so to speak, were they illusions created by Sephy through Jenova?
This thread is fantastic because me and my sister have been having an ongoing debate about this for about a year.
So I'm guessing, Sephiroth didn't technically have Psychic ish powers, but if he controlled Jenova that meant he was using her powers through her?
It's all quite confusing :]

No he had Psychic powers, or else he wouldn't have been able to project the images of Bizarro/Seraphim into the Heros minds. Much less would he have been able to jump into Cloud's Mind to get Omnislashed out.

It was a power he gained through 'enlightenment' in the Lifestream. It's not that hard to figure out.
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