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OK, I have a few questions to ask regarding your site, since you would not bother with my previous suggestions.

1) What is so original about the name of your site? To me, "Caves of Narshe" sounds more like a cheesy & randomly-selected filler than something ACTUALLY catchy and inspiring. What kind of ring does "Caves of Narshe" have? Nothing. Hey, I think I'll play the game too - I'm gonna start a Final Fantasy fan site of my own and call it "Forests of Mysidia"! Man, what a totally original and well-thought out name for a Final Fantasy fan site! No need to give me the bull of "it started as a FFVI fan site in 1997", because it's not going to help your case that much when you're still using an outdated name. "Caves of Narshe" is appropriate enough for your average half-assed Final Fantasy VI fan site from the late 90s, generated by Geocities or Angelfire.

2) Not only that, but there are no layouts that I have found as I browsed your site to even come as close as resembling a cool inner cavern. I will admit, that would have been pretty cool had you produced something like that; at least something like that could have made some better sense of that lifeless name that I so find to be so dull.

3) Lastly, as a Final Fantasy fan site, what does CoN have that other Final Fantasy fan sites don't? What I mean is the shortage of Final Fantasy games in your database, not counting the mediocre reviews or the recycled fan arts/fan fictions. Surprisingly, I see more effort with posting fan art/fiction than covering Final Fantasy games in general. In fact, you provide artwork related to SquareEnix games you have yet to cover (II & VIII-XII, and including Kingdom Hearts). The same also goes for your Avatar Gallery, as they contain images of characters from games you have not covered on this site.

I understand that you *only* cover the (official) American releases, but how come there is no coverage for Final Fantasy III (the DS remake), Final Fantasy VIII (regardless, even if the majority of Final Fantasy fans on this site hate the game, it is still a part of the Final Fantasy franchise, whether you like it or not, so I doubt CoN is to be relied on as the #1 source for Final Fantasy coverage when you dismiss one game simply because of popular opinions), Final Fantasy IX, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy X-2, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, Final Fantasy Adventure, Final Fantasy Legends 1-3, etc.?

There are so many Final Fantasy games that CoN is still missing from their database as of yet, and it's a laughing shame that what you have up so far is all that has been accomplished throughout its horrendous 13-year run. I will not change my opinion that CoN is not the most reliable FF fan site until you can convince me otherwise. The whiners who want/wanted Final Fantasy VIII should have all the right to demand, because they are your audience, too. But this is not my site, so I won't force you.

All of the games currently featured on this site are beyond 10 years old. Personally, I think Caves of Narshe would be put to better use had it just been a simple Deviant-Art ripoff site where users just post their artwork and comment on each other. I do not believe that this site has what it takes to compete against the more content-rich sites, such as TFF ("The Final Fantasy") or EoFF (Eyes on Final Fantasy).

Moderator Edit

I set the topic title here when I split it from an unrelated thread. The rest of the text I left unadulterated. Allen Hunter, if you'd like a different topic title, feel free to say so. -R51

Moderator Edit

Topic title reset again at Tonepoet's suggestion. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 15th April 2010 17:31

Quote (Allen Hunter @ 14th April 2010 13:08)

Enormous amount of WAAAAAAAAH
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
and general butt-hurtery.

If you liked it, then you should've put a ring on it.
If you don't, then maybe you're just not ready for this jelly.

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 14th April 2010 17:45

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Okay, but there was a goat!

I think the pinned topic on game coverage answers #3.

http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/forums/ipb/in...?showtopic=8780

And the other 2 points just look like trolling to me...

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FF games completed: I (psp), II (psp), III (DS), IV (psp), V (GBA), VI (GBA), VII, VIII, IX, X, XI: Nations-Rhapsodies of Vana'diel, XII, XIII, XIV, XV.
Spin-offs: FFIV: Interlude & The After Years, Crisis Core: FFVII, X-2, XIII-2, Lightning Returns, Type-0 HD, Dissidia, Dissidia 012, and Tactics (original & WotL).
Enjoyed them all.

Excuse me sir, but that was rather immature and ignorant of you to desecrate my post. For a site that strictly enforces civility and maturity, you sure are doing a great job at it.

Also, how am I trolling? I am simply addressing some features of this site which I find flawed.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 14th April 2010 18:07

We don't make any promises to be anything that we're not.

1. The site was formed in 1997, back in the days of Geocities/Angelfire/AOL Hometown/etc. I was around way back then, and the site wouldn't feel right with a different name. FF6 was the first game we covered, and it is nice to keep that as the root of the site.

2. That is a neat suggestion. I like a lot of the layouts we have (CoN4 being my favorite) but that could be a cool addition.

3. We don't ever claim to be a site to get information for all of the Final Fantasy universe. Most, if not all of staff is employed elsewhere and this is a work we do for fun. To hold with the schedule of all things Final Fantasy (or Square-Enix, if the CT section would set that precedent!) would be grueling and would pull the fun out of it. We prefer to release information for games that we all appreciate and we don't hold ourselves to anything further than that. We also don't release sections until we are fully satisfied - data accuracy, functionality, and totality of information are all important to us, and that simply takes more time than we have without working for quite awhile on each individual section.

Take CoN for what it is - you're applying a lot of labels to us that we don't claim or want to have. You're welcome to try out other sites that you might appreciate more, like ffhacktics or something like that.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

I don't think you have any idea of the amount of man hours involved in getting a new game covered that's up to the standards of CoN. Several hundreds of hours, if not over a thousand, are required for each game. I apologize on behalf of the staff for not living in a bubble where time sits still and we have all the free time available to us that we had back in high school.

This site may not have every single FF that you specifically want, but it wasn't created with the pleasing of Allen Hunter in mind. It was created to honor FFVI and fleshed out to cover the other games we grew up with and love to this day, and it does a better job at that than any other site I've ever seen on the net. Go look at the two sites you think are better. Then go compare the sections that all three have in common(that means the games covered by CoN). There is a massive difference in the amount of information and the way it's presented. I was going to post screen shots of the FFIV bestiaries from each siteas an example, but one is a text file and the other is a broken link....so it's like comparing Angelina Jolie to the stick figure drawings I did as a child. That's not to say the other two sites are bad, they do a decent job for their target audience. It's just I prefer going to a site that goes above and beyond what you would expect from a typical fansite. Apparently 1up sees that as well.

You do have a decent suggestion or two, but your phrasing and topic title are combative and obviously aimed at trying to get a rise from other members and/or staff. If you enjoy the other sites so much more, feel free to hang out over there, no one is stopping you. The internet is a great for finding people that share your interests, and CoN suits me just fine.

Moderator Edit

In fairness, I set his topic title. He posted it in an unrelated topic, so I split it out and had nothing better to title it at the time. That's probably good for everyone to know, I'll be more clear. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 14th April 2010 18:49

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"My impersonation of an ordinary person was flawless." - Neal

"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

Well, aside from the merits or otherwise of your suggestions - if you like your suggestions acted upon, a tip that applies both here and anywhere else is that you should try to frame them politely. As it is, certain parts of both of your suggestion posts have made them read much more like troll vomit than genuine ideas. That doesn't incline us to listen to your suggestions, clouded as they appear to be by negative sentiment rather than solid reasoning, and it naturally leads to the kind of angry and/or flippant responses you've mostly received here.

I'll address your points briefly.

1 and 2: If the name of a site, and in particular the name of the website not matching directly with its design, presents you with a serious cause of dislike for it as a whole, I would suggest that a lot of the Web will make you angry in one way or another.

A cave theme might be kind of nice if we did it right, but somehow, if we unveiled one tomorrow, I doubt it would change your core opinion of the site, based on the vitriol of your next point. If it did, I would suggest that the things you value in a website do not particularly match most of our core audience, to say the least.

3: If we didn't offer anything that other sites didn't, you wouldn't be posting here. At the very least, we seem to offer something for you to vent your spleen and look a bit foolish about. But as others have said - if it's of little value to you, please, feel free go to one of the other sites instead. I promise that we won't be upset. If others feel the same, they will vote with their feet (or browsers) too, and that is that. I don't think posting a topic about how angry a website makes you is going to change that, and we're certainly not interested in defending what is and isn't on the site just because it's of no worth to you.

In fact, if you find this site so worthless, I have to wonder why you are so determined to keep coming back and complaining about it. It would probably be easier to move on with your life.

In response to Neal:

Quote

1. The site was formed in 1997, back in the days of Geocities/Angelfire/AOL Hometown/etc. I was around way back then, and the site wouldn't feel right with a different name. FF6 was the first game we covered, and it is nice to keep that as the root of the site.

I have been quite aware of that history. However, my argument about the name was the originality of it and the irrelevance it has to the layout of the site; all I see is just a design tossed together, but with no hints of actual caverns. It's like calling yourself "Burger King", but without the King mascot for the promotions.

Quote

2. That is a neat suggestion. I like a lot of the layouts we have (CoN4 being my favorite) but that could be a cool addition.

Glad to know you agreed with my second suggestion. And like I said, I would love to see some sort of cool inner cavern design. While originality is definitely out of the question for CoN's name, at least it would make better sense that way.

Now, switching the empty wine bottle over to Hanyou:

Quote

Go look at the two sites you think are better. Then go compare the sections that all three have in common(that means the games covered by CoN). There is a massive difference in the amount of information and the way it's presented.

You seem very passionate about the games you cover - I'll give you that.

However, all that extra effort being put is more than enough to help out the average gamer. Because only you and Neal have responded maturely in this thread, I don't want to be rude towards them, but I have always relied on GameFAQs (even when I was aware of this site's existence) when it comes to walkthroughs, even if there are some errors here and there. But no big deal - that is why we (as the audience) stand up and address the comments and suggestions toward the author(s) of the walkthrough. GameFAQs has been around since I believe, 1995, and some of the earliest Final Fantasy walkthroughs came around there during the later parts of the 90s (1997-1999). It may be debatable whether or not CoN actually contributed to FFVI's case, but the rest of the games have been figured out before you even decided on featuring them here.

Now, to Tiddles:

Quote

I don't think posting a topic about how angry a website makes you is going to change that, and we're certainly not interested in defending what is and isn't on the site just because it's of no worth to you.

What could be so wrong with offering comments and suggestions? If you want to better your site, then you should lend an ear to the audience, no matter how silly they sound, or how "unpopular" or "despised" they are. I don't believe that warning a user at someone's birthday thread for offering an intelligent suggestion to rid of greeting and farewell threads was a good move.

Honestly, I agree with that warned user, because most Internet forums are CLUTTERED with annoying and vague greeting threads, which most likely gets more activity than any other category in the forum. Being involved in the Web business since 1999, I find that webmasters should preserve the potential members they already have and will have by giving them more chances if they show they want to be a proud supporter of his/her site.

And, merely curious; why was this thread moved to the Greetings forum? I believe that the questions I have put up in the OP belong to the Comments and Suggestions forum.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 14th April 2010 19:59

Quote (Tiddles)

In fact, if you find this site so worthless, I have to wonder why you are so determined to keep coming back and complaining about it. It would probably be easier to move on with your life.

Okay, I had to edit my post, because Tiddles said it man. You talk about other Final Fantasy sites being so much better? Why are you here man? Does it really bother you that we're here? I don't get it, I really don't. There's obviously some reason you keep coming ba...

Wait, I get it. You can't hate something unless you care for it. Perhaps an angel came, and told you that it is your mission to save CoN from itself. Well, news flash man, this is a fan site, and we don't really need saving. Because we've been around for a long time... we've outlasted many other fansites.

But you know what man, in all honesty, all sincerity, Allen Hunter, I just want to talk about games with you dude. Are you a FFVI fan? FF? Games? Politics? Philosophy? Anything? Because I'm tired of rants, because none of that crap is important. IF R51 wants to rename the site, add layouts, he'll do it. Just talk with us about anything else dude, because man, that's what I came here for.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 14th April 2010 20:26

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote

Could you imagine Burger King suddenly changing its name out of nowhere? How much would that affect their marketing? They would have to go on and on in advertisments about what their new name is.

Burger King has a distinctive name, even if formed out of common words. Caves of Narshe, however, uses a name borrowed from a video game.

Quote

Do you want this to be the Website Formerly Known as Caves of Narshe?

I just don't see the point in renaming it "Super Cool Website about FF and Other Stuff."

...I never said that? My suggestion was to change the name, since other Final Fantasy games have been added, and because it sounds very outdated.

Quote

1) The name talks about the site's history as a former FFVI fansite that has now flourished into one of the best forums on the internet.

Seriously? No matter strict your rules become, your community has been quite inactive. And, the fact that many of these strict rules were enforced in the past, many potential members left in disappointment.

Quote

2) The name that used to refer to the caves that are at the beginning of Final Fantasy VI has now taken a life of its own. Now it refers to this site. This site is CoN, just like the Yankees are New York's baseball team. What if they changed their name?

Yes, I knew that already. You don't have to remind me of the origins. Yes, I know it started as a Final Fantasy VI fan site. You already pointed that out in your previous answer. All I said was probably have some cool layout showing an inner cavern. Even Neal admitted that, so why can't you?

Quote

3) Recently the site had a CoNtest.... you see my point? The name is part of this site, by history, name recognition, and through the marketing of the site.

No, I don't. Contests come and go. I was talking about actual content on this site's featured games (excluding the fan arts/fan fictions). It is nice to have a contest here and there every once in a while, but that shouldn't be the main focus of a common FF fan site (though on contrary, some do, but I feel CoN should focus more on covering the games than starting contests most of the time).

Web sites earn communities based on the content they provide, and seeing that CoN was especially popular from the early 2000s up to 2004 or 2005 (I think), most people who moved on to the newer FF games left this place. I was simply recommending that CoN step up and cover the newer FF games, regardless of their opinions of a particular game. I don't like Final Fantasy VIII at all, though I would love to see it featured here. See what I mean?

On the subject of the Greetings section:

First of all, I don't think greetings threads are useless. People might feel awkward if they just start posting on a forum without any kind of introduction. Introducing oneself before becoming a regular visitor is a welcome courtesy.

Second of all, the Greetings thread does not add to postcount. CoN is about as anti-spam thread as forums get, and introduction and birthday threads that are almost completely comprised of hellos and congratulations are about as content-free as posts get. As such, users don't receive posts on their postcount for Greetings threads. Since postcount++ is often a major motivation for spammers, this mitigates the spam.

And on the warned person in R51's birthday thread, well, that user had been sarcastically posting "...no purpose ... feel free to start a thread etc. etc." messages after being told off by a mod for trolling somewhere else. What you thought was an intelligent suggestion was actually the call of a disgruntled mockingbird.

And as to why this thread was moved to the Greetings forum, I'm not sure. My guess is that this ought to count as a greeting / re-greeting since you have inexplicably materialized here after several months of absence to bash CoN.

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

For some reason, my browser is not letting me edit my post, so I will have to double-post.

Quote

You talk about other Final Fantasy sites being so much better? Why are you here man? Does it really bother you that we're here? I don't get it, I really don't. There's obviously some reason you keep coming ba...

Wait, I get it. You can't hate something unless you care for it. Perhaps an angel came, and told you that it is your mission to save CoN from itself. Well, news flash man, this is a fan site, and we don't really need saving.

Haha, yeah... that MUST be it. Who cares about my purpose on this site? I am simply one lurker that decided on commenting on this site, because I felt like it. Don't you want a better site? Don't you like listening to others? That's why I decided to step in and confront you with my questions and suggestions, even if you don't agree with me. I always ask people what they think of the sites I make, because I care about raising and improving a site and the community for it.

Quote

Because we've been around for a long time... we've outlasted many other fansites.

OK, sure. I'll admit this place has been around for a long time, but I wasn't criticizing CoN for its age, just the lack of content and originality.

Quote

But you know what man, in all honesty, all sincerity, Allen Hunter, I just want to talk about games with you dude.

Sure thing. We can talk about games elsewhere.

Quote

Are you a FFVI fan?

It's a good game, but I prefer FFVII and FFIV over it. But hey, getting a little off-topic, aren't we?

Quote

FF?

We may like each other if we were to talk about mostly the older games, because I love to game mostly on vintage consoles.

Quote

Games?

Sure, always down for a game of Yahtzee or playing Chess.

Quote

Politics?

Not so much.

Quote

Philosophy?

We all have beliefs, don't we?

Quote

Anything?

Impossible. We all have our likes and dislikes.

Quote

Because I'm tired of rants, because none of that crap is important.

Sometimes they are, if they are addressing a specific point. I don't like to read all that crap either, but what can you do? Arguments make the Earth go round.

Quote

IF R51 wants to rename the site, add layouts, he'll do it.

Rightly so. Though it is his site, that should not prevent me or you from expressing ourselves here. If not, then what would have been the purpose of a Comments and Suggestions forum?

Quote

Just talk with us about anything else dude, because man, that's what I came here for.

OK, like I said, we have a time and place for all that stuff.

To laszlow:

Quote

First of all, I don't think greetings threads are useless. People might feel awkward if they just start posting on a forum without any kind of introduction. Introducing oneself before becoming a regular visitor is a welcome courtesy.

From what I have experienced, most forums were at its highest activities when it came around to simply greeting others.

Quote

Second of all, the Greetings thread does not add to postcount.

Mhmm. I figured that already. No wonder my post count wasn't rising. No matter what, it's the concern of shortage of returning members that I was arguing about.

Quote

And as to why this thread was moved to the Greetings forum, I'm not sure. My guess is that this ought to count as a greeting / re-greeting since you have inexplicably materialized here after several months of absence to bash CoN.

I didn't want to greet myself. All I wanted to do was offer a few C&C on your site. I don't like posting greeting threads about myself that much, anyway.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 14th April 2010 20:55

Right. I'll focus on one point here.

Quote (Allen_Hunter)

What could be so wrong with offering comments and suggestions? If you want to better your site, then you should lend an ear to the audience, no matter how silly they sound, or how "unpopular" or "despised" they are. I don't believe that warning a user at someone's birthday thread for offering an intelligent suggestion to rid of greeting and farewell threads was a good move.

Now. It's important for the audience that doesn't visit the #narshe IRC channel so often that I explain this poster's motive. He has advertised his website on this forum and in the channel. We as a community offered what we thought was constructive criticism, as we do. However, instead of accepting this, he decided to come back time and time again to criticise THIS site instead of improving his own. It's at this point that some members who shall remain nameless DID start acting... shall we say, less than friendly. They DID criticise his website, and it is those EXACT criticisms that he is now trying to use against us. Very hypocritical, given the quote, if you ask me. Take the "Unimaginitive name" or "Lack of content" arguments for example.

Quote

OK, sure. I'll admit this place has been around for a long time, but I wasn't criticizing CoN for its age, just the lack of content and originality.

Both were used against your site, first in a friendly co-operative manner, than as a derogatory comeback. You've persisted at being very rude and offensive in our channel, and now you're just taking it to the forums.

Quote

Being involved in the Web business since 1999, I find that webmasters should preserve the potential members they already have and will have by giving them more chances if they show they want to be a proud supporter of his/her site.

One, aren't you, like, 15? Two, what does that even mean? Three, if you'd been involved in the Web Business since 1999, you wouldn't have hired someone from Craigslist to do your layout, as you mentioned previously (and seemed proud of.) I'd like to know what other websites you've worked on in the past eleven years.

I'd also be interested to see what your fellow staff member - also CoN member Zero_Hawk - thinks about these outbursts. Looking for more publicity from a more popular website?

Edit

Quote

Hey, I think I'll play the game too - I'm gonna start a Final Fantasy fan site of my own and call it "Forests of Mysidia"!

That's a stupid name.

This post has been edited by footbigmike on 14th April 2010 23:24

Caves of Narshe - As has been at least suggested, I'm pretty sure the site is named thus out of sentimentality more than anything else. I would agree that there isn't anything special about the name on the surface, but after being here for almost (a measly) five years, even I feel a bit sentimental about it; couldn't imagine the site being named anything else.

Consequently, while your layout suggestion might be a neat idea, I've never given much thought to the connection between that and the site's name, though that may be partly due to my fondness for the current fanart layout.

I really like this site, though, these days, that has less to do with the games it covers (still love VI and Tactics, though) and more to do with the dedication of the staff and the community that dedication has fostered. In particular, I really like the new fanart submission system, even if I haven't taken advantage of it as much as I probably should (I REALLY want to, though!)

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Console RPG Cliches

All this is, essentially, is a feeble attempt at one person to try and take a shot at one of the big dogs and, by extent, draw some attention to his own work. Certainly Caves of Narshe is an infinitely more original moniker for a website than say, I don't know, MegaGaming? One of the two tactfully alludes to the general theme of the content found within the site, while the other is a vague and utterly bland title that could be taken to represent anything. Not to mention, there are already several other websites with the name "MegaGaming", or with variations of.

I'd imagine the feedback you're getting for your comments should be an indicator that the community here is far from being inactive but if that isn't enough for you, how about this: it's funny that you'd pick on the inactivity of CoN, considering your own website has a grand total of, what, six or seven members, were completely shutdown for an extended period of time and hey, do you even have a working forum? Try again after you've lasted half as long as CoN has, maybe then we'll bother to listen to your commentary.

You're displeased because the site doesn't even look like caves? Are you also upset that Mars bars candy aren't actually from Mars, or that, for example, Wal-Mart is not actually a market for walls? Come on, that's a juvenile attempt at nitpicking if ever there was one.

Notably, if you bothered to actually read parts of this forum, you'd notice that there has been an increase of older members returning, not to mention the ever present new members stumbling across the site for the first time. I very much doubt any of the members who have left us would appreciate you speaking on their behalf, however, so kindly limit your suggestions to things you know about, hmm?

Oh, sorry, if that were the case, I doubt you'd be saying much at all.

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 14th April 2010 22:22

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 14th April 2010 12:45)

If you liked it, then you should've put a ring on it.
If you don't, then maybe you're just not ready for this jelly.

I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely didn't want to post in this thread, but I'm sorry... DF's post is without a doubt the best thing ever established on the internet, ever, and I needed to show my devotion to it.

Dearest Allen Hunter,

I apologize personally and emphatically for all of the other Staffers, Members, and cherished Veterans who attempted to kindly and reasonably deal with you. I know, I know, they all just don't get it sometimes. Passively arguing and bringing up knowledgeable counter-points to your generally vapid and ill-standing complaints... it's craziness. But I suppose it's because they're such decent and patient people who are willing to work with their online communities for the betterment of their small but ultimately special social sphere of the e-universe.

What I will give to you know, is exactly what you want and need to hear:

Thank you, Allen Hunter, for your Comments and Suggestions. We are currently processing your concerns with great anticipation for their emergence in our next, face-changing installment of the fansite we all (excluding you) know and love. In your next user-generated topic, we only ask that you make sure to continue to utilize your show stopping conversational method of debate that solely relies on the strategy of "No, you're wrong, I'm right." If possible, please teach our humble new members how to be as wise and eloquent as you are in saying "No!"

Additionally, thank you for putting an unprecedented burden on our Quote button and experimentally showing us that it's still good as new.

Thank you for your patronage,
Caves of Narshe (pending an already submitted request for name-change to "Exquisite Vision on The Final Fantasy" in order to better match the times and the competition to the sites preferred by you)

PS: Oh wait, it's not a patronage, you don't pay for access to any of this. I forgot.
PPS: The Inner Caves layout idea is stupid and I don't like it. I also don't care that Neal or anyone else thought it was a good idea. How about them apples.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Seriously, I think this guy takes my torch for complaining/hating.


MegaGabing > MegaGaming.

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

It sounds like your just looking for a fight over the internet. If you don't like Caves of narshe then don't come here and ignore the site. Simple.

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Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.

What?
...
No, seriously, you seem to have strange expectations of the Caves, so, to quote certain video game critic, either you've got the wrong address, or you're projecting so hard you could point yourself at a wall and show PowerPoint presentations.

But let me respond to your rant.
1. You know, I'm reminded of "Demolition man", namely of what happened to Taco Bell in that movie. I like to think that the Caves are in the process of becoming the same in the realm of FF sites.

2. Actually a nice idea. I hope this suggestion goes through

3. Besides the fact that putting a section together requires a LOT of time and effort, I seriously doubt that VIII, X or X-2 are anywhere high on the staff's priority list.
EyesOnFF? Last time I went there it all looked really sloppy.
Also, this:

Quote (Allen Hunter)

Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, Final Fantasy Adventure, Final Fantasy Legends 1-3, etc

You know that these are not actually Final Fantasy games , right?

This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 15th April 2010 06:30

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

I'd like to say that I'm new here and I actually joined, more or less, FOR the name really. I'm a big FFVI fan and as soon I saw the "Caves of Nashe" name I thought, well, that has exactly what I'm looking for on it, surely.

So I browse around and find that it has more than what I was looking for which is superb. The name itself, I don't think should be changed. For starters, the cave part being plural and based off the caves of narshe in the game imply that it is a network of tunnels (or in this case, just different parts of the site) in which us, as the members, will travel around and browse.

Intentional or not, I like the name and its implications.

In terms of covering other games, I agree this may be a good idea but after seeing the previous post about how long it takes and how unneccesary all that time would be, I'd rather not.

The layouts are fine in my opinion also. Don't get me wrong, caves would be a good layout but, you know, the site is fine as it is. I think it looks really smooth and it looks new.

So, yeah. My first post on here, I think it was quite rightly put to an all right use.

--------------------

"Pushed so far to the edge, we teeter just on the brink! You can lead me to the bloodbath, but you can't make me drink!" Rise Against - Tip the Scales

For future readers of this topic, I'd like to point you to footbigmike's post. In that light, I'm not completely convinced that this is even a serious topic (which is why it was in Greetings, just so we can clarify that. A topic lacking seriousness with a variety of responses in kind shouldn't necessarily add to anyone's postcount - however, at Allen's insistence, back to Commsugg it goes).

On the off chance that this topic is in fact intended to be a serious suggestion, I'll be happy to give you my input. I highly doubt that you have any use for it and will instead reiterate your initial points in response, as I have the impression that communication for you is merely a one-way street; however, here is a response in good faith.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

"Caves of Narshe" is appropriate enough for your average half-assed Final Fantasy VI fan site from the late 90s, generated by Geocities or Angelfire.

You're not entirely wrong here. The name came before I got any of my education in marketing and advertising, and were I starting this very same site today, I rather doubt I'd name it the same (though I'm quite sure I wouldn't name it "Final Fantasy [Random Inspiring Sounding Noun]" as were so many sites created after CoN).

The reason why it should never and will never change now is due to the branding aspect of the site. Like the name or not, Caves of Narshe is the brand, and in the small sphere of Final Fantasy websites, it's a well-known brand. While anecdotal, I can say that I have met several people who, when discovering that I run CoN, immediately recognize the name of the site and what it does. There's no reason to throw that kind of exposure away. None at all.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

Not only that, but there are no layouts that I have found as I browsed your site to even come as close as resembling a cool inner cavern. I will admit, that would have been pretty cool had you produced something like that; at least something like that could have made some better sense of that lifeless name that I so find to be so dull.

So, this argument is based solely on the idea that you still don't like the name. Fair enough. Might be an interesting concept, even. Given what I already have on the books for what I would like to do in the near future, I don't really see it happening. But in the midst of what I think was a troll post, you actually had an interesting idea here.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

Lastly, as a Final Fantasy fan site, what does CoN have that other Final Fantasy fan sites don't? What I mean is the shortage of Final Fantasy games in your database, not counting the mediocre reviews or the recycled fan arts/fan fictions. Surprisingly, I see more effort with posting fan art/fiction than covering Final Fantasy games in general. In fact, you provide artwork related to SquareEnix games you have yet to cover (II & VIII-XII, and including Kingdom Hearts). The same also goes for your Avatar Gallery, as they contain images of characters from games you have not covered on this site.

Asked and mostly answered here. However, I will note that the changes to fanart were a calculated effort to broaden the userbase with user-generated content from a variety of games. The games accepted for fanart are different than the games covered on the site because the two types of content are completely different. It's not that complicated.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

There are so many Final Fantasy games that CoN is still missing from their database as of yet, and it's a laughing shame that what you have up so far is all that has been accomplished throughout its horrendous 13-year run

Well, I disagree with your use of adjectives, but, sure, there is more content that we'd like to have. Certainly not all the games that you mention, for various reasons, but most of the games we don't cover are not covered for a simple reason - we're not sure we want to. The reasons why we might not want to are varied, but at their core they boil down to that. The games or versions of games that we don't cover, but want to, have another simple reason: time. As someone who has been

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

involved in the Web business since 1999

I'm sure you understand what a massive undertaking something like game coverage is (oh, and on that note, please do feel free to share with us some of the projects you've been involved in over those ten-plus years. I'm not just a web professional, you see, I'm also a fan of good UI and like to see it from CoN members whenever possible). To that point, there's a reason that we ask for people's help in collating data and writing for the site. We can't do it all on our own. If you really are concerned about the quality of the coverage, contribute some for a game we cover or are planning to cover. That is actually much more constructive than this thread.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

I do not believe that this site has what it takes to compete against the more content-rich sites, such as TFF ("The Final Fantasy") or EoFF (Eyes on Final Fantasy).

Well, I'm not sure that the metrics I've seen necessarily say we don't compete. I feel that we have some strengths against sites like those two, but I can completely understand that a lot of folks might perceive that we have weaknesses against them too. You could even throw GameFAQs into that mix, if you like. I dunno, I'm not really looking to put any other sites out of business, here, just as I'm sure they're not having staff meetings talking about how they want CoN shut down. Who really gains in that kind of environment? However, that rolls right into another one of your comments:

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

Web sites earn communities based on the content they provide, and seeing that CoN was especially popular from the early 2000s up to 2004 or 2005 (I think), most people who moved on to the newer FF games left this place.

Actually, our numbers are fairly similar in terms of PVs between 2004 and 2009. A bit fewer unique visitors overall, but that's to be expected in a site that has reached maturity, as you no doubt know given your years in the business. I actually quite like where our stats are now - fewer uniques but a similar number of page visits means that we are getting more people to stick around and view more of the site every visit.

I've used far too much time on drafting this post now, as I believe in my heart that the whole thing was simply trolling and that none of the suggestions were meant to be taken seriously (and I really have some work to be doing today at the office). Also, several things on which I probably would have commented were covered by other posters in the thread.

I will end by pointing out again that comments and suggestions are welcome, they really are, but don't be surprised if the suggestions made don't leap to the top of the pile over the several projects we already have in the hopper. To people who really want to see the site progress, the best way to do so is to ask us, publicly or privately, what you can do to help. Adding stuff to the site requires a lot of grunt work, not necessarily technical knowledge (because Tiddles and I do virtually all of the tech work), so there's not much limiting anyone from helping aside from desire.



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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Rangers51 @ 15th April 2010 10:57)

That is actually much more constructive than this thread.

You said that right. There are many things more constructive than ranting and raving.

This really shouldn't be in the suggestions section. Would it be a suggestion if I wrote an article called "Why R51 Sucks"?

See, Allen Hunter, it's fine if you make a topic talking about CoN maybe changing its name, or an article about layouts. But this isn't that, it's just a rant.

Edit

Also, Ranger, when I was on last night, two guests were reading the article... Two Guests! People deciding whether they want to join or not, reading a pathetic rant. It's just my opinion, but this is helping nothing.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 15th April 2010 21:26

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Praise Be To Helix!

I don't want to actually argue any points, but I did want to say why I became a member and remain one.

CoN to me isn't about the flashes and whistles. Sure, it's got a plain name and a plain layout, but I feel like these serve their purpose just fine. I've got the nice white and light blue layout because most of the dark techo-y layouts on other forums are annoying. If anything, the layout and the name do a good job of reflecting the nature of the site.

The walkthroughs are great. After reading FFVII or any of the others, walkthroughs from gamefaqs or wherever else come up entirely short.

Another really important part, to me at least, is the people here. Discussion is (almost) always clean, civilized and gramatically respectable. There's a unique atmosphere here. The people are great. I'm not the most important person here, but I know that I'm respected, as is everyone else. I wouldn't like Caves if it suddenly attracted tons of shouty, stereotypical internet people.

So I guess a lot of the things that Allen is complaining about... are the things that I like about CoN. I think it occupies a certain niche and it isn't for everyone, but that's why I'm a regular.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

NOTE: Please, I do not want to start a site war in any way. Let us shift this towards more civility and less apologist statements about why this thread was moved to the Greetings forum or the immature remarks about one site's name being more "original" than another's.

Rangers51: I was wondering why you were not responding this whole time, but I am glad you are being civil about it. And let me say this - I apologize for the harshness, I really do. I sincerely believe that we would not have been arguing about CoN's lack of originality had FBM simply not brought my site up in such a smug attitude at the IRC channel. That is why I was irate, at the time, and still am.

I know I have a bad temper when I feel pushed over at times, but I can't help it. That day I joined chat, not only did I feel a bit uncomfortable with FBM bringing my site up all of a sudden, but people had to go and contribute to the roasting of my site by asking me what MegaGaming has that other gaming sites don't have or our name in concern; which is why I decided to ask you, the founder of CoN, those exact same questions.

MegaGaming is a combination of two common words; Caves of Narshe borrows a name of a city in Final Fantasy VI, which makes CoN's name no more original than MG's. But obviously, not even my site's name is original either. And, sites like GamingWorld, GameSpot, and GameFAQs contain bland and/or cliched words. So I believe that calling me out on "lack of originality" with the name was basically the pot calling the kettle black. That is all I am going to say.

I believe my suggestion for that inner cavern design can visually help more people (like myself) appreciate your site's name more. See if it works, when you have time.

To the people who are hostile towards that suggestion of mine (which even Neal himself admitted was a good idea): If R51 does decide to consider my suggestion, but you don't like it, you can just switch it back to the CoN5 layout. I believe that having a detailed cavern layout (maybe even including a cool picture of Mog resting his arm on a sword) can help give even lesser room to blandness (not saying your current one is bad; but it's not very special, besides the random FF fan arts). Seriously, I would love to see something like that done.

And as far as you not changing CoN's name, I can understand that a site's name can get stuck to your head as time passes on and you get used to it, and because of that, you don't really have to care to worry about how "original" it is, as originality is very rare nowadays. I believe that MegaGaming can stand on its own as a likable name once the site makes further progress, so we're not that different after all when it comes to lack of originality. Who cares, right? And, to show that I want to be friends, we are looking for recuits.

SilverMaduin: They may not be actual Final Fantasy games, but, why was Chrono Trigger featured on CoN, then? That game is no closer to the FF series than games like Romancing SaGa (which uses FFV-styled graphics and an ATB system). But the fact of the matter is that what all of these mentioned games have in common is that they are SquareEnix's games. That is all I can say.

FootBigMike: I came up with that name back in early 2007, and looked it up on Google to make sure. (No sites containing the name "MegaGaming" were shown, at the time.) And I believe I have already told you several times in the past that MegaGaming has long since switched servers from the original URL you are so used to accessing, since like, uh, early January of 2010? Oh, and I spoke with Zero_Hawk on AIM last Thursday. Just casual talk. Nothing serious.

I consider this a fair fight that ended in a tie. My site was pointed out for being flawed, and so was CoN. Let's leave it at that. Let's all go to the bar and have a drink together. It's on me.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 18th April 2010 04:58

Oh good, you're still here. I'm non-alcoholic so I'll take a can pineapple juice please.

I guess this means I'm the only one who likes the site name for the sake of thinking it sounds catchy. It's not quite a phrase used in the original game too as far as I'm aware. If they're even mentioned at all, I think it's as either mines or the narshe caves, which gives it at least some originality points over sites that use something directly ripped from a game element. As a fringe benefit: It CoNtracts to CoN which allows for quite a few campy puns as I'm sure I could easily CoNvey if the need ever arises. I suppose taste is subective but I'm sure you can agree that it could've been worse at any rate; R51 could've made a FF IV fansite called The Land of Summoned Monsters instead.

I too quite like the idea of a cavern layout actually, especially if it's fashioned after the titular area with the grey and purple of the stones, the browns of the crates and so on. I've often wondered why we don't have the option for one myself for the very same reason of it being the namesake. That being said Persona's one of the best presented layouts I've seen since I pretty much started browsing the web and it needn't be necessarily shifted out of default. I'm guessing it probably would be set to default since it's a lot of work for something so otherwise rarely used but it's just a thought.

That's pretty much all I have to say here other than "Hey, cool, I got listened to." I see you took the minimalistic route huh R51? ;-)

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 18th April 2010 02:59

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Role reversal at its finest.

Quote (Allen Hunter @ 17th April 2010 21:58)

MegaGaming is a combination of two common words; Caves of Narshe borrows a name of a city in Final Fantasy VI, which makes CoN's name no more original than MG's. But obviously, not even my site's name is original either. And, sites like GamingWorld, GameSpot, and GameFAQs contain bland and/or cliched words. So I believe that calling me out on "lack of originality" with the name was basically the pot calling the kettle black. That is all I am going to say.

That's all you're going to say, huh? Hmm, well, I was wondering what your site was, it's name and all, considering your main criticism was our name's lack of originality.

MegaGaming? Originality? Umm, are you kidding me?

No, no, no, I don't mean to say that I think one's better than the other. In fact, I have absolutely no opinion. See, I left it to Google.

I looked up megagaming, then mega gaming, and, well, I found quite a bit. Sites about gaming, mega, sites that are called megagaming, sites that provide "MEGA GAMING COVERAGE."

You do realize that the words

Quote (Allen Hunter)

common

and

Quote (Allen Hunter)

originality

are almost exact opposites right? Because you are saying that you picked two common words to make an unoriginal name.

Yes, many things came up about megagaming, but there was one site called Caves of Narshe: this one.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 18th April 2010 04:23

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 18th April 2010 04:21)

Quote (Allen Hunter @ 17th April 2010 21:58)

MegaGaming is a combination of two common words; Caves of Narshe borrows a name of a city in Final Fantasy VI, which makes CoN's name no more original than MG's. But obviously, not even my site's name is original either. And, sites like GamingWorld, GameSpot, and GameFAQs contain bland and/or cliched words. So I believe that calling me out on "lack of originality" with the name was basically the pot calling the kettle black. That is all I am going to say.

That's all you're going to say, huh? Hmm, well, I was wondering what your site was, it's name and all, considering your main criticism was our name's lack of originality.

MegaGaming? Originality? Umm, are you kidding me?

No, no, no, I don't mean to say that I think one's better than the other. In fact, I have absolutely no opinion. See, I left it to Google.

I looked up megagaming, then mega gaming, and, well, I found quite a bit. Sites about gaming, mega, sites that are called megagaming, sites that provide "MEGA GAMING COVERAGE."

You do realize that the words

Quote (Allen Hunter)

common

and

Quote (Allen Hunter)

originality

are almost exact opposites right? Because you are saying that you picked two common words to make an unoriginal name.

Yes, many things came up about megagaming, but there was one site called Caves of Narshe: this one.

I thought I wanted to put this all behind us and move on? You're only going to make matters worse by resuming this argument. I would suggest stopping right there, because you are embarrassing yourself more than you are permitted to.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 18th April 2010 06:01

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bring it back up.

Actually, I was just pointing out, how funny it all was. You criticizing us for a bland title when your site's called "Megagaming." lol, but, anyways, sorry for bringing it up.

--------------------

Praise Be To Helix!

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

NOTE: Please, I do not want to start a site war in any way. Let us shift this towards more civility and less apologist statements about why this thread was moved to the Greetings forum or the immature remarks about one site's name being more "original" than another's.

Don't worry, you shan't start a site war. We barely have the energy to keep our own site going, we certainly have no interest in dealing with yours at an institutional level, at least in that way. I will say, though, that you could have very easily left this in chat and avoided a lot of these responses.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

Rangers51: I was wondering why you were not responding this whole time, but I am glad you are being civil about it. And let me say this - I apologize for the harshness, I really do. I sincerely believe that we would not have been arguing about CoN's lack of originality had FBM simply not brought my site up in such a smug attitude at the IRC channel. That is why I was irate, at the time, and still am.

You must have been quite irate to take a conversation that happened, in IRC, a month ago or more, between you and one person that you call out by name, and turn it into an angry forum-based discussion. You obviously were irate enough that you wanted to make a big, public deal of it in front of dozens of readers that had no idea what was going on in the first place. I don't see why putting on this show really helped you at all.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

So I believe that calling me out on "lack of originality" with the name was basically the pot calling the kettle black. That is all I am going to say.

Fair enough. Since I'm the person who named this site, though, and I don't recall saying anything at all about the name of your site, you're misdirecting your anger by asking me, "the founder of CoN, the exact same questions." The opinions of my staff or my chatters or my forum posters are not necessarily the opinions of the site, and by not drawing that distinction, you are in error.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

To the people who are hostile towards that suggestion of mine (which even Neal himself admitted was a good idea): If R51 does decide to consider my suggestion, but you don't like it, you can just switch it back to the CoN5 layout.

Were I to ever take you up on that suggestion, I will have to say that users would never have to switch back to the CoN5 layout. Such a design would not become the default, as we already have a default layout that, while certainly a bit dated now, is the design for this iteration of the site. Should there be a new iteration of the site, we indeed already have tentative plans for what that iteration would be as well. Should this cavernous design ever be put underway, it would certainly be another selectable style, not the default. In addition, anyone who is reading this who might want to have a go at it certainly can feel free to do so - we say so right here. A name is a name, and a UI is a UI. They simply don't have to be matchy-matchy in order to work.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

SilverMaduin: They may not be actual Final Fantasy games, but, why was Chrono Trigger featured on CoN, then?

Believe me, we agonized for a while about whether to add it. For a while, it was actually going to be the third game we covered after FF4 and FF6, in fact. That would put discussions on the topic all the way back to 2001. I doubt there'd be any question why we had done it if we'd done it then. The reason that we finally did it in the end was that despite being a non-FF title, it absolutely is among Squenix' best work, and it has the very same feeling of nostalgia that the very best Final Fantasies provide to a great many fans.

Quote ("Allen Hunter")

I consider this a fair fight that ended in a tie. My site was pointed out for being flawed, and so was CoN. Let's leave it at that. Let's all go to the bar and have a drink together. It's on me.

Just a few brief points here: one, I never considered it a fight at all, and I believe you said that you were directing your original post at me. Perhaps it's the fact that you considered it a fight that made so many people treat you harshly in this thread. Additionally, from everything I've heard, you're still in your mid-teens, so I'd rather not risk the fines for taking you to a bar (which reminds me, you never did explain how you'd been in the web business for so long at your age). Finally, I don't drink on anyone's tab anyway.


--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

I don't want to antagonize you, Allen Hunter, but I would like to simply offer my own opinion on the topics you mention (thus, my comments are meant for everyone, not simply you).

1) As for the name, I think it's great. I've been a member of a half dozen other forums over the years (several of which were FF-centered), and as far as original naming is concerned, Caves of Narshe seems the more original when you list FF sites: FF Gurus, FF Insider, FF Shrine, FF Extreme, Caves of Narshe, FF Online, etc. I can respect your opinion that Caves of Narshe may not be the most original name, but the fact of the matter is that it definitely branches away from the common, run-of-the-mill naming, which is more important in my book. Being distinctive in your branding (as opposed to riding your competitor's coattails by making yourself similar) is a bright idea (assuming you've got something to back it up, but we'll get to that later). And the fact of the matter is that CoN is a brand, as R51 pointed out earlier. It's been this way since "forever", and it'll stay that way. Plus, as was mentioned earlier, it lends itself quite well to puns, which is always a plus in my book. Case in point: AmaCoN (which also helps with Branding; you see, that R51 is one smart cookie).

2) I personally enjoy the current layout. I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a Narshe Mines layout, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it, you know? I think it would be very easy for such a layout to be visually overbearing. The current layout is simple and laid-back, just like CoN.

3) I happen to love CoN (in the least sexually-perverse way possible, mind you). CoN has incredibly in-depth coverage of those games that it does cover, and what's more, the forums here are absolutely the finest I've ever been to (remember early I mentioned I'd been a member of several other forums: I have long since abandoned those others). If you have a question about a game that wasn't covered, you can rely on the forums here for a quick and helpful response. Oh, and you'll be able to understand those responses because the (vast majority of) posters here are literate. Oh, and they're not douchebags. Also, the forums offer more serious fare for those interested. We're all getting older (probably one of the reasons some of the past members have become scarce or have left: we simply have less time) and Final Fantasy isn't the only aspect of our lives. There are discussions of politics and philosophy, in addition to sports and gaming.

I'll readily admit that I'm biased when it comes to game coverage; I don't care if CoN never covers FF8 for instance, because CoN happens to cover all the FF I love (4,6,7, & T), but I think that comes from the territory: CoN never (as far as I know) set out to cover all things FF. Rather, CoN represents a love for the quality gaming we grew up with. So, the staffers work on the (Squenix) games they love. While I can't say I've been here for all 13 years, I can say that none of the near-6 years I've been here have been close to horrendous. Here's to 13 more years (and then some)!