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Caves of Narshe Forums > Final Fantasy VII > Hojo irredemably evil?

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 22nd February 2015 15:18

What do you guys think? i was just thinking of this.

The reason i was thinking of this, is that hojo treats both red XIII and aeris/aerith, sephiroth and anyone else who comes around as a scientific object, with 0 remorse for his actions.

This guy is the same person who put red XIII and aerith together to see if they could have babies together, not thinking about the fact that maybe red XIII didn't want to or aeris, and his actions were cruel.

He didn't think about the fact his wife would die and his unborn child might suffer because of this, and he ended up suffering because of this cruel man.This man has no ethics at all.He cares about himself and doesn't care who he hurts in the name of science as long as he gets what he wants.I think hojo is so bad, he is comparable to monsters like luca blight and kefka level.

Posted by: chevleclair 22nd February 2015 20:49

Hojo is a standard mad scientist trope. His view of ethics just simply doesn't exist, those are often overruled by his curiosity and his need to push the envelope in his particular field (whatever that might be). He's not cruel for the sake of being cruel, he just simply wants to achieve something and make a name for himself.

In a sense, yes, he is evil, but simultaneously, he's not villainous in the classic sense.

Posted by: Rangers51 22nd February 2015 22:51

I've seen a lot of real-world scientists and researchers behave in similar ways; I'm with chevleclair on this one. I don't think he's necessarily evil, but he definitely has a twisted view of the world relative to what one would consider normal or acceptable. It's kind of hard to describe in a way that doesn't make him sound evil, but I think it's a question of where the motive is.

Posted by: Death Penalty 23rd February 2015 00:53

I would agree with Josh and Chevleclair, but with the addition that I would stick with the use of "irredeemably." Even if his absolute disregard for anything like morals - anything that isn't research - doesn't make Hojo evil per se (he's cruelly ambivalent), I do think the game portrays him as incapable of ever comprehending, let alone considering, an ethical dimension to existence.

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 23rd February 2015 13:00

The problem i have with the mad scientist theory, is he hadn't one single redeemable factor i saw.When he did the vr thing? bad

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I heard in advent chidren he tried to conquer the world(another point in itself)

Hojo even if he said he loved his son, he commited a crime against his very own wife and son (lucrecia and sephiroth)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197341-final-fantasy-vii/answers/15115-was-vincent-injected-with-jenova-cells

Whats interesting here, is the comment that at most hojo loves his son as an experiment.If that is true, then it isn't actual feelings towards his son, but merely as an experiment.I don't know if this is true, but i'l see what you guys think.

Posted by: chevleclair 25th February 2015 07:15

Dirge of Cerberus hath been evoked. I could only hope that one day, that FFVII could be spoken of and we could just forget that awful follow up. Playing FFVII is like dating the person of your dreams, and Dirge of Cerberus is akin to waking up the next morning with a social disease. That might sound a little dramatic, but that's how strongly I feel about how good FFVII is and how bad DoC is.

While I could write for hours on how much I loathe DoC, I'm going to simply stick to the subject matter, which is Hojo. So many of the characters are victimized by the money grabbing half-hearted game, and Hojo seems to be one of the worst at being besmirched.

In Final Fantasy VII, he seemed to be trying to defy the gods! To usurp the limitations humanity had been born with and replace them with beings such as Sephiroth, and he was going to do that by any means necessary. It was going to be Hojo as the innovator, and by God, there was nothing that was going to stop him! Write and wrong, his family, his superiors, the party- no one was to stop him. He was going to stand at the pinnacle of his field and live as a god in that regard.

Now we have DoC Hojo. Now he will create an army of thingies to take over the world! cue the twirling mustache and the anthropomorphic platypus to suddenly stop him at the last moment- oh, wait, I think that's something else. Well, it's easy enough to get them confused. He becomes just the world-domination bent mad scientist trope.

Others may not agree with me, but I, from the bottom of my heart, wish DoC never existed. Hojo, like most of the FFVII characters, was a suitably epic and well thought out character that seemed to be pushed under a blanket and pile driven to flat as a pancake in favor of a drastic money grab.

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 27th February 2015 13:09

On one forum that i talked t his about, a person said that hojo loved sepiroth and that is why he chose to doom himself by helping him.

I am skeptical, thinking maybe hojo injected himself with jenova cells early on, because he was already one beer short of a six pack.He seemed to act both nutty and creepy, and something was really wrong with him.

What he did when he injected himself with those jenova cells just proves my point that he was insane.What man but a insane megalomaniac would inject themselves with an alien parasite to take them over?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUtpAyjWZxc

Its even worse than i thought.Lucrecia herself condoned it and knew about it, making her a monster too.I'm almost thinking that maybe i was wrong, maybe lucrecia is one of those insane parents who wants to manipulate the dna of their child to be top dog? you know:they want heir child to be brilliantly smart strong etc, and crazy enough to go ahead with it.If that is so, then she is nuts too.

Posted by: Ker 8th March 2015 18:32

He's a jerkhole, but I can't really say he's "evil". He's more curious than anything else.
I think that he's a sociopath, but that can be attributed to a number of things. From the way he behaves, I'd bet money that something traumatic happened when he was still young and impressionable. That's not to say his childhood sucked; one very bad thing happening early on can really define you later on.

Posted by: MattMescudi 4th June 2015 22:13

Hojo is evil anyone who is without either sympathy or empathy (excluding children) is evil hojo couldnt redeem himself no matter what even if he stopped meteor hojo may not be trying to be cruel but his lack of compassion says it all

Posted by: BlitzSage 5th June 2015 04:09

Quote (MattMescudi @ 4th June 2015 18:13)

I think that's why Hojo's the real villain of FFVII. Sephiroth is the main obstacle that the party has to overcome, but Hojo's the man behind the curtain, and never apologizes for it.

Posted by: Arcadia 5th June 2015 04:16

I got the impression that Hojo felt like he was inadequate when compared with Professor Gast and he went a bit nuts trying to become Shinra's #1 scientist. Even Sephiroth spoke of Gast as a genius whereas Hojo was much less favorable. His one successful experiment was Sephiroth and for the rest of his career Hojo seemed obsessed with recreating/supporting his one successful creation, even moreso than supporting Shinra as a whole.

All in all, definitely nutters to the point that he cares about no one (himself included) except his scientific research. I wouldn't say he's evil though since he created Sephiroth believing that Jenova was an Ancient and the Ancients were good for the planet. In essence, he was trying to keep the Ancients from dying out (same with Red XIII's species, which are also protectors of the planet).

Posted by: MattMescudi 5th June 2015 04:33

He only tried to keep red's race alive so there would be more test subjects I think blitz sage was right when he said that hojo is the real villian I mean sure he was trying to compete with gast and yeah he thought jenova was an ancient he still doesnt have any remorse which makes him evil

Posted by: Ker 5th June 2015 06:42

Quote (MattMescudi @ 4th June 2015 21:33)

I'd have to disagree. I don't see him as the main villain. By following your logic, we also point the finger at Lucrecia, Sephiroth's mother. Because creating Sephiroth (and marrying Hojo) were choices she made of her own free will. But Ker, you say, she felt horrible enough to lock herself in a crystal!
True. But she's still just as guilty. If you're calling Hojo the "man behind the curtain, you'd best not forget Lucrecia, ShinRa, Gast... They're all equally as guilty.
If I recall, ShinRa was the one who had Sephiroth made in the first place.
Hojo may not be empathetic or sympathetic, but that by itself doesn't make him evil. He's not a good person, but "evil"? Nah. Crazy? Yeah.

Posted by: MattMescudi 5th June 2015 14:36

Lucrecia was prettt screwed up I'll grant you that but she didnt do everything with her own free will thats why Vincent got shot plus with gast he may have worked for shinra but he left for his wife and unborn child shinra is plain evil you're right about that but everyone you claimed a vilian (excluding shinra) felt remorse at some point they did something to attempt to redeem themselves hojo never did he's sick twisted and without compassion or remorse he is truly evil

Posted by: Ker 5th June 2015 20:21

Quote (MattMescudi @ 5th June 2015 07:36)

I object; Vincent got shot because he wasn't minding his own business. In fact, he was impeding Lucrecia's free will. She chose to be with Hojo. She wasn't forced in the slightest. Vincent was in love with her, and she was suffering from carrying Sephiroth. Her suffering wasn't Hojo's fault any more than it was her own- they both decided to use their fetus for science, and it had unintended side effects. What Vincent did (the harassment of Hojo before being shot) he did out of love for her. His hatred for Hojo is based off his love for her, not the experiments that many people assume Hojo did (anyone who played DoC knows it was Lucrecia all along).
And if Hojo is irredeemably evil, then so is Sephiroth. Why?
Their personalities are very similar. This is likely due to him being Hojo's son. Before anyone causes a fuss about how not alike they are, because god knows how many fanboys I run into...
Does Sephiroth show any sympathy or remorse? No. He's very cold, analytic, uncaring for anyone other than himself and Jenova. Just like a certain somebody is about his science.

Posted by: BlitzSage 6th June 2015 02:47

But like Matt said, Lucrecia felt remorse for what she did. The mark of a good person is not that they are without mistakes, but that they are repentant when they do make mistakes. But Hojo acts with greed, and in many ways, Sephiroth acts out of emotional confusion.

Posted by: Ker 6th June 2015 03:33

Quote (BlitzSage @ 5th June 2015 19:47)

Where do you see emotional confusion? The only thing Sephiroth was confused about was Jenova. After the incident in Nibelheim, he doesn't act like an emotionally confused person. He's distant, analytic, and definitely not remorseful. As they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

"But Ker, the Nibelheim incident MADE Sephiroth that way! He's totally redeemable because of that!"
Okay.
Then what does that say about Hojo?

Posted by: MattMescudi 6th June 2015 03:43

Sephiroth and hojo are irredeemable sephiroth almost killed everyone with metoer hojo created sephiroth end of discussion

Posted by: Ker 6th June 2015 03:46

Quote (MattMescudi @ 5th June 2015 20:43)

Sephiroth and hojo are irredeemable sephiroth almost killed everyone with metoer hojo created sephiroth end of discussion

Okay.
Then Lucrecia and Gast and ShinRa are also irredeemable, because they "caused Sephiroth".

Posted by: BlitzSage 6th June 2015 05:04

Quote (Ker @ 5th June 2015 23:46)

Quote (MattMescudi @ 5th June 2015 20:43)

Sephiroth and hojo are irredeemable sephiroth almost killed everyone with metoer hojo created sephiroth end of discussion

Okay.
Then Lucrecia and Gast and ShinRa are also irredeemable, because they "caused Sephiroth".

Caused is different than created. One implies intent. And he's emotionally confused because he believes he's a god who has to cleanse the planet. He finds out that he's a monster and that's the way he copes with it. He constructs this image of himself as a way of deflecting the emotions of that knowledge.

Posted by: Ker 7th June 2015 20:42

Quote (BlitzSage @ 5th June 2015 22:04)

Quote (Ker @ 5th June 2015 23:46)

Quote (MattMescudi @ 5th June 2015 20:43)

Sephiroth and hojo are irredeemable sephiroth almost killed everyone with metoer hojo created sephiroth end of discussion

Okay.
Then Lucrecia and Gast and ShinRa are also irredeemable, because they "caused Sephiroth".

Point taken. But I'm standing by my earlier statements. Hojo may not be a good person, but "truly evil" is a bit of a stretch. It's hard to explain Hojo and not have him sound evil, but the reality of it is that he's not. He doesn't intend to hurt people because he enjoys it, like say, Kefka does. He does it for the sake of knowledge. For the sake of advancing scientifically. He's no "ultimate puppet master"; do you really think he knew ahead of time how Sephiroth was going to turn out? He didn't know any more than anyone else did that Sephiroth was going to go mad and cause the whole fiasco.

Posted by: MattMescudi 8th June 2015 23:02

Okay so hojo does do everything to learn and he doesn't do it to be cruel I get it but the fact is that he has zero sympathy he doesn't feel bad and that's what makes him evil

Posted by: Stiltzkin 8th June 2015 23:57

Quote (MattMescudi @ 9th June 2015 00:02)

but the fact is that he has zero sympathy he doesn't feel bad and that's what makes him evil

Is it?

Take this out of the Hojo conversation for a moment - is that the marker of what makes a person evil? I don't think so. All that indicates is a personality disorder; in fact, it's an element of psychopathy - but not all psychopaths are evil.

Surely a better characterisation of real evil is to wilfully commit an unspeakable act just for the hell of it, or just to watch the world burn? An enjoyment of being malicious, to cause suffering for the sake of it?

Posted by: Dynamic Threads 9th June 2015 00:22

We also have to keep in mind that the idea of "evil" is a Christian construct, or a religious one at the very least. The idea of "good" vs. "evil" is overplayed. There is a factor of ethics and opposing viewpoints but to simplify things as either good or evil is not the right way to view them.

Hojo might be irredeemably unethical, but to cal him evil suggests a religious undertone, IMO. Something a scientist usually isn't.

Posted by: chevleclair 9th June 2015 00:36

"Evil" is a word derived from the proto-Germanic (pre-Christian) word "uefel" meaning "harmful or destructive". The concept of "evil" derives from Greek philosophies on moralism, later adopted by the Romantic Christians. The meaning of "evil" is definitely the Christian definition, abiding by the Hebrew Ten Commandments (which theft, murder, envy, lying, and hubris are definitely things to avoid, but to each their own, I suppose.)

I don't see Hojo as classically evil, but amoral in the aspect of doing something without thinking about the consequences of his actions (I think that might fall under hubris). Do I see him has irredeemable? No. But given his lack of contrition for the events that transpired, I would say he'd not likely redeem himself anytime soon.

Posted by: Dynamic Threads 9th June 2015 00:48

Quote (chevleclair @ 8th June 2015 19:36)

Thanks for the clarification on the subject

I was referring to what you said, meaning the Christian definition that is mostly accepted in Western culture.

Posted by: BlitzSage 9th June 2015 05:13

Well, it is probably true that evil is too loaded of a term to use in his case or any others. To call someone evil does imply a sort of sanctimonious self-righteousness, and a (somewhat false) dichotomy. No one is absolutely good or evil (for now on, I'll just use bad, since it's less charged), but I think we can say people are generally good or bad. I would say that most people are generally good, meaning that they may cause harm to others, but do not do so as usual practice. They may have non-amiable qualities, a.k.a, someone's a jerk, but that does necessarily make them a bad person by the definition. For someone to be bad, or the loaded term, evil, they have to consistently place people in situations that lead to harm, misery, or death. I would also include into this people who partake in actions without regard to the wellbeing of others; in the same way, they are consistently participating in actions that lead to harm, misery, or death, and choose not to care even when confronted with it.

Knowing my political views, as chevleclair does, imagine that I pursued political change even if it caused a lot of harm in the process, regardless of my intent it would make me a bad (even evil) person in my conduct. Every action Hojo takes fits that bill.

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 24th June 2015 11:02

I personally think to call hojo evil wouldn't be completely inaccurate, after all:Lucrecia just wanted the perfect son.

You could call also lack of empathy and anisocial personality disorders a kind of mental disorder, since the ones who murder torture and other things are going against the rules.

I personally am not sure if he loved his son or not, but hojo thought nothing about the experiments on red XIII.Maybe he was obsessed with sephiroth as a experiment and possibly as the perfect son as Lucrecia is.

Posted by: Dragoon Lance 14th July 2015 07:21

I'd put Hojo on the same level as Sephiroth, maybe even more sinister than him, only because Hojo wanted to intentionally create monsters, even to the extent of sacrificing Lucrecia to Jenova.

Posted by: Ker 17th July 2015 18:23

Quote (Dragoon Lance @ 14th July 2015 00:21)

I'd put Hojo on the same level as Sephiroth, maybe even more sinister than him, only because Hojo wanted to intentionally create monsters, even to the extent of sacrificing Lucrecia to Jenova.

Actually. He didn't "sacrifice" his wife, they both consensually chose to have Sephiroth. On top of that, he didn't know any better than anyone else involved that it was Jenova and not an Ancient, as has been said at least once in this topic...

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 17th July 2015 18:48

Quote (Ker @ 17th July 2015 18:23)

Quote (Dragoon Lance @ 14th July 2015 00:21)

I'd put Hojo on the same level as Sephiroth, maybe even more sinister than him, only because Hojo wanted to intentionally create monsters, even to the extent of sacrificing Lucrecia to Jenova.

Actually:Hojo knew what he was doing.He knew it was cells of something, and decided to do it anyways, because it suited him.

Lucretia I am not so sure why she involved herself.Maybe she was obsessed with having the perfect child, and a kid who surpasses everyone, with w bit of scientific curiosity.She doesn't seem evil though.

Posted by: Ker 18th July 2015 21:06

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 17th July 2015 11:48)

Quote (Ker @ 17th July 2015 18:23)

Quote (Dragoon Lance @ 14th July 2015 00:21)

I'd put Hojo on the same level as Sephiroth, maybe even more sinister than him, only because Hojo wanted to intentionally create monsters, even to the extent of sacrificing Lucrecia to Jenova.

"She doesn't seem evil, though."
That doesn't mean she's not. Much as I loathe Dirge of Cerberus, the game reveals that Lucrecia is the one who put Chaos inside of Vincent, not Hojo. She jerks Vincent's heart around on a string, and causes him to think she loves him back, and she doesn't. Does she still look like an innocent angel?
And let me remind you that Lucrecia also knew what she was doing with those cells. She's a scientist, not a damsel in distress. Might I also remind you that there is no possible way that Hojo knew it wasn't an Ancient? It suited everyone's purpose to make Sephiroth. Hell, what did Hojo really even gain from it, compared to ShinRa?

Posted by: MattMescudi 18th July 2015 21:25

Hojo and lucrcia did agree to the experiment but hojo was still willing to do such a terrible tjing not only to his wife but also he's unborn child that requires real evil

Posted by: Ker 19th July 2015 02:16

Quote (MattMescudi @ 18th July 2015 14:25)

Hojo and lucrcia did agree to the experiment but hojo was still willing to do such a terrible tjing not only to his wife but also he's unborn child that requires real evil

As was Lucrecia. She was completely willing to endanger herself and unborn child for the sake of getting what she wanted. She completely disregards the maternal instinct that she should have, and uses her own child for the sake of science. Do you think it would have been any different if Hojo was a woman and Lucrecia was a man? No. It wouldn't have, because Hojo endangers himself for science more than once in the course of FFVII.

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 19th July 2015 08:09

Quote (Ker @ 19th July 2015 02:16)

Quote (MattMescudi @ 18th July 2015 14:25)

Hojo and lucrcia did agree to the experiment but hojo was still willing to do such a terrible tjing not only to his wife but also he's unborn child that requires real evil

In the video I saw of doc,it looked like Lucretia was trying to save Vincent.Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what it looks like.On the other hand, Lucretia knew full well about the dangers of experimenting on herself and agreed to do it while pregnant with sephiroth.The fact she knew about the whole thing and agreed to do it raises alarm bells in my head, and this is why I wonder if maybe she was obsessed with the perfect child.Some people would love the perfect child who excels at sports and science, and I guarantee that if the tech were available Irl, some folks would be trying to get a kid free of disabilities, extra smarts, better limbs, smarter, stronger, etc etc.

Maybe it had something to do with why Lucretia agreed, or maybe she just agreed for the sake of science, or both, making her kind of amoral.

Posted by: Ker 19th July 2015 15:37

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 19th July 2015 01:09)

Quote (Ker @ 19th July 2015 02:16)

Quote (MattMescudi @ 18th July 2015 14:25)

Hojo and lucrcia did agree to the experiment but hojo was still willing to do such a terrible tjing not only to his wife but also he's unborn child that requires real evil

Yes, she saved Vincent, but in doing so furthered her thesis. That was her true reason.
Lucrecia being obsessed with the perfect child would make sense, except that they were supposed to be putting an Ancient inside Sephiroth, which wouldn't make him any better of a specimen. Jenova, however, does.
So, in my opinion, she is fairly amoral; she just covers it up better than Hojo does... And that would make her scary if she didn't put herself in a crystal.

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 22nd July 2015 06:51

Are Lucretia's motives ever explained in dirge of Cerberus?

I wonder, because she looks like she regrets what she did.

Posted by: Ker 22nd July 2015 18:38

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 21st July 2015 23:51)

Are Lucretia's motives ever explained in dirge of Cerberus?

I wonder, because she looks like she regrets what she did.

Now let me say this first. Dirge of Cerberus is utter trash. Its plot is written so poorly, that a middle schooler could have written better. It demonizes Hojo in a way that makes absolutely NO sense. But it does show how Lucrecia plays with Vincent's heart. It also implies her motives, but it's never clearly explained that I remember.