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My Caves of Narshe Forums Review

Hello, this is Blades of Steel here. The reason why I made this account was because I was put on post moderation for only one mildly insulting remark I made to another user, and because I felt that no mod or admin would approve of this review I wrote straight from the heart. I do not mind, ban me if you will, but please hear me out first.

I would like to review Caves of Narshe, as a message board in it's entirety to what I feel are flawed out. Please understand that this is just my honesty, and I appreciate all comments, positive or negative, in this thread. I will not force the staff responsible for this site to change their rules, but to give them my perspective of things. I just felt that certain things on this site were not acceptable for a forum.

- First, users are not allowed to have their own avatars, membertitles, and add images to their sigs, regardless if content is appropriate to the audience or not. You are forced to pick out only the specified avatars that the site grants you, not a picture that you want to include as your avatar. This, limits the privileges of the user, and reduces interest within the community.

People should have the freedom to select how they want their profiles customized, and you can still have limits as to how long in pixel lengths your picture must be in your signature, or your avatar, etc.

- Second, censorship. Because the administrators have chosen that this site have an audience with the age minimum of 13 years, and mainly users who are in their early teens-early 20s, you are prohibited from using the "f" word, the "s" word, and all other swear words. I can understand that some people may find it offensive, but forced censorship prohibits people from expressing themselves online, which contradicts the importance of internet forums, blogs, and other such sites. If you cannot get away with using any swear words on this board, then that is fascism.

I mean, people use the internet to express themselves, no matter how angry, how happy, or how sad they are, but by restricting their freedom by editing out their posts with cocky one-liners is going too far. It seems to me that being a member of Caves of Narshe is just like following any dogmatic religion. If you break one silly rule, you already get a verbal warn, often with "witty" remarks to show off how much of a "funny and true" moderator/administrator you are.

- Third, sense of humor. Anyone with some intelligence would agree with you that the internet is an anything-goes environment, meaning you can get away with saying what you want to express yourself. People like to make sarcastic remarks to others, just to tease them, not to flame. I agree, flaming is immature, and should not be allowed. But heated, intelligent discussions should be encouraged.

Anyway, sarcasm is a big need in internet communities, because humor is a part of what makes people feel happy and good to themselves. On this site, you cannot get away with sarcasm or randomness without having to type the rehashed "jk" just to let people know you're joking.

Just because someone writes something in good grammar, that doesn't mean that they're being serious, just like an all-lowercase post doesn't mean it's trying to be funny. And no, you cannot tell the voice of the people who write whatever they write on these boards.

But, you have to have common sense and to try and see if they're really just trying to tease you around. I believe sarcasm needs to be encouraged. Even if you may call it "stupid", we all from time to time fall intrigued by stupidity, without being such sad, pathetic fascists. It is what Mother Nature has given us: the ability to laugh and joke around.

- Last, but not least, forum strictness. I don't understand why this site cares so much about their rubbish rules? Forums are a place for communication, a place to express yourselves, a place for you to say the kind of things that others in real life would not accept. I understand racism and sexism is bad, but people should have the freedom to swear non-racist terms. Even if a term offends you, realize that this is the internet, a place where anything can happen.

Let people say what they want, as long as they don't spam advertising or endanger this site in any way. If someone says something offensive to you, why not just step up and debate against them for that? If you're just going to warn/ban them for having an opinion, you're no better than that person. I mean, I only made one post mildly insulting another user, and already, I had myself on post moderation! That isn't fair. This must be addressed.

And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. This is my feedback for Caves of Narshe Forums. Please tell me what you think of my review, with your honesty.

Quote (Blades in Disguise @ 12th October 2009 07:24)

And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. This is my feedback for Caves of Narshe Forums. Please tell me what you think of my review, with your honesty.

I'll be honest, this wasn't a review, this was a rant saying "rebuild the forums, so that I like them better and so that they're more like everywhere else!".
My answer to that, as a member of the Caves is a strong 'NO.'

Quote (Blades in Disguise @ 12th October 2009 07:24)

My Caves of Narshe Forums Review

Hello, this is Blades of Steel here. The reason why I made this account was because I was put on post moderation for only one mildly insulting remark I made to another user, and because I felt that no mod or admin would approve of this review I wrote straight from the heart. I do not mind, ban me if you will, but please hear me out first.

I would like to review Caves of Narshe, as a message board in it's entirety to what I feel are flawed out. Please understand that this is just my honesty, and I appreciate all comments, positive or negative, in this thread. I will not force the staff responsible for this site to change their rules, but to give them my perspective of things. I just felt that certain things on this site were not acceptable for a forum.

Fix'd.

Quote (Blades in Disguise @ 12th October 2009 07:24)

- First, users are not allowed to have their own avatars, membertitles, and add images to their sigs, regardless if content is appropriate to the audience or not. You are forced to pick out only the specified avatars that the site grants you, not a picture that you want to include as your avatar. This, limits the privileges of the user, and reduces interest within the community.

This also limits the number of idiots who troll for customised profiles and who probably wouldn't have anything worthwhile to post. It alsosaves on server space (i guess), since with a custom avatar system EVERYONE would most probably get themselves an avvy and CoN has a truck-convoyload of registered users. Besides, the avatar library is GINORMOUS, if there isn't at least one avatar you like in there you probably aren't looking hard enough. And there's also the possibility to opt for new avatars to be added to the library. Zack being the example.

Quote (Blades in Disguise @ 12th October 2009 07:24)

- Second, censorship. Because the administrators have chosen that this site have an audience with the age minimum of 13 years, and mainly users who are in their early teens-early 20s, you are prohibited from using the "f" word, the "s" word, and all other swear words. I can understand that some people may find it offensive, but forced censorship prohibits people from expressing themselves online, which contradicts the importance of internet forums, blogs, and other such sites. If you cannot get away with using any swear words on this board, then that is fascism.

I mean, people use the internet to express themselves, no matter how angry, how happy, or how sad they are, but by restricting their freedom by editing out their posts with cocky one-liners is going too far. It seems to me that being a member of Caves of Narshe is just like following any dogmatic religion. If you break one silly rule, you already get a verbal warn, often with "witty" remarks to show off how much of a "funny and true" moderator/administrator you are.

Another reason we don't have (many ) trolls, is that they're not allowed to swear, so they leave, the childish buggers. I personally have been reminded a couple times of the no profanity rule and I never complained, heck, I never got angry about it.
And besides, this isn't "forced censorship", it's just keeping civility - I mean, do you LIKE seeing and hearing people cussing? Or are you just incapable of expressing yourself fully without the use of swear words?
And I personally like some of the "cocky one-liners" the mods dish out -I mean chceck my second signature quote.

By the way, did you just invoke Godwin's Law in the starting post of a topic?

Quote (Blades in Disguise @ 12th October 2009 07:24)

- Third, sense of humor. Anyone with some intelligence would agree with you that the internet is an anything-goes environment, meaning you can get away with saying what you want to express yourself. People like to make sarcastic remarks to others, just to tease them, not to flame. I agree, flaming is immature, and should not be allowed. But heated, intelligent discussions should be encouraged.

Anyway, sarcasm is a big need in internet communities, because humor is a part of what makes people feel happy and good to themselves. On this site, you cannot get away with sarcasm or randomness without having to type the rehashed "jk" just to let people know you're joking.

Just because someone writes something in good grammar, that doesn't mean that they're being serious, just like an all-lowercase post doesn't mean it's trying to be funny. And no, you cannot tell the voice of the people who write whatever they write on these boards.

But, you have to have common sense and to try and see if they're really just trying to tease you around. I believe sarcasm needs to be encouraged. Even if you may call it "stupid", we all from time to time fall intrigued by stupidity, without being such sad, pathetic fascists. It is what Mother Nature has given us: the ability to laugh and joke around.

Nope, that wasn't Mother Nature, it was Uncle Civilization.
Most people on the Caves don't have problems with recognizing jokes as jokes or sarcasm as sarcasm. There're some misunderstandings of intent, but they're few and far between. You make this sound like a recurring theme. Source, please.

Quote (Blades in Disguise @ 12th October 2009 07:24)

- Last, but not least, forum strictness. I don't understand why this site cares so much about their rubbish rules? Forums are a place for communication, a place to express yourselves, a place for you to say the kind of things that others in real life would not accept. I understand racism and sexism is bad, but people should have the freedom to swear non-racist terms. Even if a term offends you, realize that this is the internet, a place where anything can happen.

Let people say what they want, as long as they don't spam advertising or endanger this site in any way. If someone says something offensive to you, why not just step up and debate against them for that? If you're just going to warn/ban them for having an opinion, you're no better than that person. I mean, I only made one post mildly insulting another user, and already, I had myself on post moderation! That isn't fair. This must be addressed.

LOL. Just LOL.
The rules aren't rubbish, they're there to keep things civil and under control, so the forums don't deteriorate into a pointless, brainless flame-fest like the rest of the internet. And since anything can happen in the internet, there you have it: a forum with RULES happenned, who would've guessed?
No, let's not let people say what they want - let's have them effing THINK before they say anything, because what this will do, if anything, is make the post better. If someone says something offensive to me on the internet I get considerably frustrated, because any threats of violence on my part wouldn't be valid - people naturally react to offense with aggression.

And one thing I'd like to point out: the rules apply to everyone and anyone, including staff members.

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Quote (laszlow @ 10th October 2009 14:51)

Moderator Edit

Shouldn't staff not help to derail threads from their topics? See me after class, etc. -R51

Nobody is safe from the iron grip of CoN mod tyranny.

This is a great point because it means the users can't be abused by the staff.
Well, not in anyway that can't be directly redirected at the offender.

Edit

Also, case in joke-point: the mod tyranny line is an obvious joke and it's not labelled as one, nor written all-lowercase or anything. See?

Everything you point out as flaw of CoN is actually keeping the forums free of childish spammers, flame-maniac trolls and other plague's of the internet. This site is kept clean and on a superior level thanks to rules you label as "rubbish".

Ask the rest of us if you don't believe me alone.

You're not going to change CoN and no-one is forcing you to be on CoN. It hasn't been made to please you specifically.

Edit

I've actually looked up The post you;ve been suspended for and the rest of them, since it's not that many. The post in question is not only non-contributive and stupid even as a joke, so many of your posts are pointless, irrelevant blather that I'm surprised you managed to pull off this rant here without being distracted by shiny objects.

On a side note, I think you didn't need to make a new account for this topic, since the mods would've almost certainly approved of it, because it is IN LINE WITH THE FORUM RULES.

This post has been edited by SilverMaduin on 12th October 2009 07:42

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

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First, users are not allowed to have their own avatars, membertitles, and add images to their sigs

As a retired moderator of another forum, I completely understand why this is in place. I have seen far too many avatars that were completely inappropriate and/or offensive to a sizable portion of the community there. Despite the rules being laid out, people still broke them in hopes that moderation would let them slip by unnoticed. When they got banned/warned or had their avatars removed, they cried foul. This forum removes that problem entirely. However, a new problem with feelings of stifled personality arises as seen in your post.

Perhaps a middle ground could be agreed upon.
Members with a CoN appropriate avatar could submit them to the moderation staff for approval. Of course, this still is constraining to a few, but the fact of the matter is that most people (especially on the internet) can't really be trusted to behave.

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forced censorship prohibits people from expressing themselves online, which contradicts the importance of internet forums, blogs, and other such sites. If you cannot get away with using any swear words on this board, then that is fascism.

To be fair, while the forum is open to any and everybody, the owners/moderators have the last say. If they do not want swearing, then they won't allow it. Plain and simple. That's not fascism, that's just a rule against offensive language. They don't allow swearing or lewd behaviour in many places in democratic countries.

The internet is a medium for expression. Correct. However, to say that having a no swearing rule on a forum that youngsters use (and you acknowledge this) defeats the purpose of the internet, then you are wrong.

Moderation is heavy here and to be frank, I prefer it that way.
I am very happy to say that I like their rules very much and it gives me peace of mind to know that I can let my younger relatives browse this forum for Square-Enix game tips, reviews and other such related things without them being exposed to the quagmire that is GameFAQs or other forums that have been overrun by people who think it's brilliant to troll newbies or drop the F-word every seventh word.

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Anyone with some intelligence would agree with you that the internet is an anything-goes environment, meaning you can get away with saying what you want to express yourself.

It can be anything goes, certainly.
If and only if the people running the site choose to have it that way. Not every site is anything goes and Caves of Narshe happens to be one of them.

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On this site, you cannot get away with sarcasm or randomness without having to type the rehashed "jk" just to let people know you're joking.

I know for a fact that many people have trouble deciphering sarcasm in person. On the internet, in text form, it is far far worse. Even sarcasm that seems blatantly obvious can be misconstrued.

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I understand racism and sexism is bad, but people should have the freedom to swear non-racist terms.

If I came to a forum you were running and started dropping racist terms, you'd ban me then? That would be censorship and by your logic, I could call you a fascist. That's an extreme example, but it serves my point. Everyone has limits, it just so happens that the moderators of CoN have a different set of limits.

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realize that this is the internet, a place where anything can happen.

Again, using the internet as your reasoning is very unsound.
The internet is only a free-for-all in terms of what content the people running the sites put up. They can limit people from seeing/saying things and ban people who don't adhere to their philosophy.

Basically, every website is its own little country with its own set of laws.
The people running the site are the government and make the rules. The people using the site are the citizens and adhere to them. If they don't like it, they go elsewhere for whatever it is they were looking for. If for some strange reason there was nowhere else in the entire internet to get what they were looking for, they would adapt.

If it is such a chore for you do adapt to the Caves of Narshe rules (really, it's not hard), you really should head elsewhere. Or better yet, start up your own site. That way, you can set your own rules and you won't ever be oppressed.

I couldn't tell from your review... is there anything that you like about Caves of Narshe? Aside from the obvious (Square-Enix gaming content). If it is gaming content alone and you dislike the community so much, I'm 100% positive that there are other communities that will suit your needs.

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- Second, censorship. Because the administrators have chosen that this site have an audience with the age minimum of 13 years, and mainly users who are in their early teens-early 20s, you are prohibited from using the "f" word, the "s" word, and all other swear words. I can understand that some people may find it offensive, but forced censorship prohibits people from expressing themselves online, which contradicts the importance of internet forums, blogs, and other such sites. If you cannot get away with using any swear words on this board, then that is fascism.

Stopped reading here, to be honest. If you think you need to swear to express yourself adequately, or that limiting swearing is "fascist", it's probably time to grow up in a big way.

If you want to know why the rules are as they are, there's a pretty recent topic in which a number of members commend the different feel the community provides compared to the majority of Web forums.

And since those are the majority, I'm sure you could find one to suit you. If there's a particular reason you like this one, the existing rules probably played a significant part in making it that way, like it or not.

I... I can't see your problem. What's wrong with the avatar gallery as long as it has good avatars?

And this is one of the forums I go to just because it actually has rules which are followed >_>

A lot of good counter-points have been made, so rather than repeating them in my own words, I'll just make a few comments on what's been said already.

Quote (Harrilal @ 12th October 2009 03:40)

Basically, every website is its own little country with its own set of laws. The people running the site are the government and make the rules.

This is a good metaphor, but it maybe encourages certain kinds of people to make ridiculous charges about government structures ("this is tyranny!") or political ideologies ("you're a fascist!"). Perhaps a better way to look at forums are as private establishments such as restaurants. Restaurant owners reserve the right refuse service to anybody and usually do so when one is (for example) dropping the F-bomb all over the place.

Quote (Mr. Saturday Knight @ 12th October 2009 01:24)

People should have the freedom to select how they want their profiles customized, and you can still have limits as to how long in pixel lengths your picture must be in your signature, or your avatar, etc.

Your profile can be customized to the extent that you choose what information you provide and don't provide. The collection of avatars to choose from is pretty sizable. Personally, I think the fact that all regular members have to choose from the same set means that you don't have to feel bad if the FF character you wanted in your avatar is already on 10 other members' avatars. This is after-all a Final Fantasy forum first and foremost, so why not limit avatars to Square-Enix themes. It also allows members who aren't as technologically savvy to have avatars on par with the more experienced net-users. Finally, with regards to the signature, I don't see the need for posting large banners with pictures that members didn't even make themselves in your sig. Then every time you make a one liner post your sig takes up 10 times as much space as the actual content of your post. Limiting people's signatures means readers don't have to search through a gallery of unrelated images to find out what people have said.

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Wha? Thanks to me?

Quote (ElPanachino @ 12th October 2009 09:09)

Quote (Mr. Saturday Knight @ 12th October 2009 01:24)

People should have the freedom to select how they want their profiles customized, and you can still have limits as to how long in pixel lengths your picture must be in your signature, or your avatar, etc.

Your profile can be customized to the extent that you choose what information you provide and don't provide. The collection of avatars to choose from is pretty sizable. Personally, I think the fact that all regular members have to choose from the same set means that you don't have to feel bad if the FF character you wanted in your avatar is already on 10 other members' avatars. This is after-all a Final Fantasy forum first and foremost, so why not limit avatars to Square-Enix themes. It also allows members who aren't as technologically savvy to have avatars on par with the more experienced net-users. Finally, with regards to the signature, I don't see the need for posting large banners with pictures that members didn't even make themselves in your sig. Then every time you make a one liner post your sig takes up 10 times as much space as the actual content of your post. Limiting people's signatures means readers don't have to search through a gallery of unrelated images to find out what people have said.

When I first arrived at CoN, I too wanted a custom avatar (and a custom member title), but that's not the way it works around here. And, I've come to like it. (As have many others, by the way.)

There is a much more homogeneous structure to CoN--and not in a "Baa! We're all Sheeple sort of way." CoN has a crisper, cleaner style to it. If you want pretty banners everywhere, go elsewhere. It's much easier to navigate when they Avvies are the same size and the signatures are smaller (and, as an added bonus, CoN doesn't take 3 hours to load due to banners).

As for custom member titles (addressing some more of the OP's issues with user limitations/perks): without the prospect of ever spamming your way to a higher, personalized, custom member title, I've found that fewer posts end up as spam posts (surprise, surprise). That doesn't mean there aren't custom member titles, but you do have to do something meaningful to earn them, not simply replying, "Cloud iz Teh Roxxxorzz!" in a "Who's your favorite FFVII character?" thread.

CoN is great precisely because there is less spam, trolling/flaming/general douchey-ness, and that which is present is quickly "suppressed."

Basically, here at CoN, we use Strength as our dump stat, rather than Intelligence.

Okay, here's the thing. I didn't read all of your post, but here's the thing.

It did not occur to me that we had the ability to challenge the forum rules. This is not a democracy, and this is not our forum, even though we love it

If you don't like the rules, well, there are other forums. I'm not trying to run you off, I hope you stay. I mean, everybody makes mistakes, and I don't want to see anybody leave this forum because of it.

But what I am saying is this: the reason this forum is so great is its moderation. There are rules and we follow them, and we're reprimanded if we do not. Otherwise, this forum would be an unruly place where people walk all over each other and spam all they want. Yet, while its moderated, it does not hinder our freedom of speech. We can still give our opinions without saying curse words and making personal attacks.

Now, I'll say I am glad you found your way back on here, now let's continue using this forum that we love and try to get along.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I do appreciate all of the folks who have come to our defense on these points - I feel obligated to point out that I've barely been around for the last five days, let alone solicited these kinds of comments, but I appreciate all of you who have not turned to attacking this guy but instead offered a simple counterpoint.

I will reiterate what someone else (maybe multiple somebodies?) has said already, that this is clearly a list of grievances more than a review, and that trying to couch the thread in terms of a review, which implies a level of objectivity, is certainly a red herring. You have your grievances, sure, as do a lot of people, but calling a spade a spade would have been appreciated.

Now, to continue on: a lot of people have already gone point-by-point to discuss why a) they do not want the things you suggest and b) why we've never offered them. I don't really feel the need to go back through each one, for that reason, and I appreciate that your fellow members saved me the time. However, one important point that I'd like to make about all of your comments is that you had several opportunities to read the forum rules before you signed up, during the signup process, and before you made your first post here - if any of these issues were so significant to you that they truly eliminate your ability to enjoy the site, there was plenty of opportunity to walk away. That you did not indicates that the issues were not significant to you, and makes me wonder what your overall goal was with this thread.

If you would like to discuss the particulars of why you ended up on moderated posts, please contact me directly. I'm the one that did it, as you well know, so discussing it publicly is appropriate to neither party. I will say, though, and I shall emphasize it so that you will see it should you read this thread any further, being warned or put on moderated posts is of zero consequence unless you continue to ignore the rules. If your posts follow the rules, your posts will be approved ASAP, and your moderated posts status will eventually be removed. If we didn't want you to post any more, we would have banned you, full stop.

With regards to your other issues, which it seems are problematic only with regards to how they impacted you personally and not the community as a whole, I feel that they have been addressed quite fully both in this thread and in various other threads around the site, so there's no need to retread them further here.

Finally, one note that you'll probably find unfortunate, but again goes back to the published rules: you can't have more than one account. It's plain and clear, and we don't want it for a variety of reasons. Therefore, I'll be banning the account that started this thread; you'll be able to use your existing account, though, as though the new one was never created. Let me also be perfectly clear, as experience tells me that some people look for any foothold to lodge an attack: this ban has NOTHING to do with the content of the thread, none at all. The rule has been in place for many years, and is not used just because we may not like the content of a thread.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 13th October 2009 14:32

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

I would just like to add that I find most of the policies in question here refreshing.

I believe that the mods here keep the site a lot cleaner by restricting avatars, signatures, etc. It just makes everything cluttered and distracting.

As far as self expression, Tiddles is right. You don't need to be able to swear to express yourself. The mods here are trying to make this forum a place that's a bit more elevated than clusters of f-bombs and shouting or sarcasm. Serious discussion is encouraged here, and it often takes place.

Also, you have a choice of being a member here. We all think that the rules are pretty good ones... so we stay. If this is such a terrible place you can always not visit...

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

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