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When you have dinner with the Emperor, he asks you a gaggle of questions, and you ask a few back. I know there are technically "correct" ways to answer them, but one question in particular had me thinking for a while.
When Gestahl asks what should be done with Kefka, you're given three choices-
•Leave him in jail
•Pardon him
•Execute him
I honestly couldn't think of what the morally correct answer would be. Yes, he caused the poisoning of Doma, which killed hundreds of people, but at the same time, if you know the Empire is trying to conquer you, and you drink bright purple water... Well, I can't say that's an intelligent choice.
Not to say that makes poisoning a castle okay, though. Even if they realized the bright purple water was poison and DIDN'T drink it, what would they do? Die of dehydration in a few days?
So all of that says, yeah, you should probably choose execution.
But if it weren't for the Empire, he wouldn't have been the first Magitek Knight, so he probably wouldn't be anywhere near as dangerous, even if he was still crazy before that happened... I'm not trying to say he's not guilty of mass murder or not responsible for it. I'm just not sure what the "morally" right thing to do is.

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

You're asking for legal consultation. What are you going to do with it?

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Quote (Eagle Caller @ 9th March 2015 01:21)

You're asking for legal consultation. What are you going to do with it?

Nothing at all. Why would I?

Being sick has put a lot of extra time in my hands, and it's fun (though admittedly frustrating on occasion) to ponder these kinds of things.

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Quote (Ker @ 8th March 2015 14:20)

When you have dinner with the Emperor, he asks you a gaggle of questions, and you ask a few back. I know there are technically "correct" ways to answer them, but one question in particular had me thinking for a while.
When Gestahl asks what should be done with Kefka, you're given three choices-
•Leave him in jail
•Pardon him
•Execute him
I honestly couldn't think of what the morally correct answer would be. Yes, he caused the poisoning of Doma, which killed hundreds of people, but at the same time, if you know the Empire is trying to conquer you, and you drink bright purple water... Well, I can't say that's an intelligent choice.
Not to say that makes poisoning a castle okay, though. Even if they realized the bright purple water was poison and DIDN'T drink it, what would they do? Die of dehydration in a few days?
So all of that says, yeah, you should probably choose execution.
But if it weren't for the Empire, he wouldn't have been the first Magitek Knight, so he probably wouldn't be anywhere near as dangerous, even if he was still crazy before that happened... I'm not trying to say he's not guilty of mass murder or not responsible for it. I'm just not sure what the "morally" right thing to do is.

The question is difficult for me, because I am completely against the death penalty for any crime. I wouldn't support that for even the worst criminals. He definitely doesn't deserve pardon; he committed a major war crime and it can't be explained that it was just an act of war.

Also, knowing what happens, let's just say it's hard to trust your enemy to give him a fair trial, or to keep him in prison. So, should we turn him over to Doma? That might sound just, after all, hand him over to the victims of the crime. The only problem is, well, there's only one Doman left. An effect of Kefka's crime is that whatever legal system existed in Doma is lost.

Should they hand Kefka over to the Returners? Possibly, except they aren't really a political system; they're more of a renegade political actor. They could have kept him as a POW until an agreement was settled and hostilities had time to end. They also might not like to hand over one of their best generals to adversaries in case an agreement could not be worked out. After all, the Returners could turn around and use him as leverage.

Send him to Figaro? That might not be fair. After all, S. Figaro had been occupied and the castle had been directly attacked by Kefka.

In other words, FFVI gives us a glimpse into how messy international politics can get. Is there a solution though? Well, I think that we would have to find a place that is relatively neutral, so bias couldn't be charged, but a place that has some prestige: possibly Narshe. Yes, the Empire attacked Narshe multiple times, but Narshe was always reluctant to support the Returners. Their elders could be trusted to mediate a fair trial for Kefka. Jidoor and Kohlingen might also be choices. But I think transporting him to a neutral power is the best answer, either for a neutral trial or as a POW until hostilities end.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th March 2015 11:43)

The question is difficult for me, because I am completely against the death penalty for any crime. I wouldn't support that for even the worst criminals. He definitely doesn't deserve pardon; he committed a major war crime and it can't be explained that it was just an act of war.

Also, knowing what happens, let's just say it's hard to trust your enemy to give him a fair trial, or to keep him in prison. So, should we turn him over to Doma? That might sound just, after all, hand him over to the victims of the crime. The only problem is, well, there's only one Doman left. An effect of Kefka's crime is that whatever legal system existed in Doma is lost.

Should they hand Kefka over to the Returners? Possibly, except they aren't really a political system; they're more of a renegade political actor. They could have kept him as a POW until an agreement was settled and hostilities had time to end. They also might not like to hand over one of their best generals to adversaries in case an agreement could not be worked out. After all, the Returners could turn around and use him as leverage.

Send him to Figaro? That might not be fair. After all, S. Figaro had been occupied and the castle had been directly attacked by Kefka.

In other words, FFVI gives us a glimpse into how messy international politics can get. Is there a solution though? Well, I think that we would have to find a place that is relatively neutral, so bias couldn't be charged, but a place that has some prestige: possibly Narshe. Yes, the Empire attacked Narshe multiple times, but Narshe was always reluctant to support the Returners. Their elders could be trusted to mediate a fair trial for Kefka. Jidoor and Kohlingen might also be choices. But I think transporting him to a neutral power is the best answer, either for a neutral trial or as a POW until hostilities end.

Firstly, let me thank you for actually answering the question instead of saying "You're asking for legal consultation, what are you planning to do with it?" *rolls eyes*

Secondly, I really liked your point of view! I had never really thought of sending him to a neutral power to be judged fairly. I can't exactly say I'm against the death penalty, especially for extremely atrocious crimes like those of Jeffery Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy, but I'm otherwise not for it.



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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

From a political standpoint, Doma is technically part of the Empire, or is at least occupied by that entity, so Gestahl technically has jurisdiction there. From a moral standpoint, he committed a war crime, especially something as atrocious as poisoning (using biological or a chemical weapon) on a civilian population. From that point of view, that's no better than dropping a tank of nerve gas on your hometown.

If this is strictly a moral question, with no politics involved, then Kefka (who was a sociopath, which is a personality disorder, not a mental disorder), then Kefka should be put to death. If you add politics, Gestahl is effectively put into a corner. He needs the help of the Returners to stop the Esper onslaught (actually, just to trap them), if the correct answer wasn't "Keep him locked up", he should make a very public trial and a show execution.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Quote (chevleclair @ 9th March 2015 12:35)

From a political standpoint, Doma is technically part of the Empire, or is at least occupied by that entity, so Gestahl technically has jurisdiction there. From a moral standpoint, he committed a war crime, especially something as atrocious as poisoning (using biological or a chemical weapon) on a civilian population. From that point of view, that's no better than dropping a tank of nerve gas on your hometown.

If this is strictly a moral question, with no politics involved, then Kefka (who was a sociopath, which is a personality disorder, not a mental disorder), then Kefka should be put to death. If you add politics, Gestahl is effectively put into a corner. He needs the help of the Returners to stop the Esper onslaught (actually, just to trap them), if the correct answer wasn't "Keep him locked up", he should make a very public trial and a show execution.

First, let me thank you for responding. I like to see how different people view this.
It was really just a question of morals, but I don't mind the political bits. It makes it that much more interesting.
I'm not really sure as to what disorders Kefka may or may not have, but I'm fairly certain that he can be held responsible for what he did. He seems to know the difference between right and wrong, and he has a grasp on reality.
That being said, execution seems like the obvious answer.
If this were actually a court case, the defense would probably argue that Kefka did it under Gestahl's orders. I personally don't think that was the case, but I can't say it's not possible, given the very convenient carrier pigeon to summon Leo away...

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Quote (Eagle Caller @ 9th March 2015 04:21)

You're asking for legal consultation. What are you going to do with it?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Quote (chevleclair)

From a political standpoint, Doma is technically part of the Empire, or is at least occupied by that entity, so Gestahl technically has jurisdiction there. From a moral standpoint, he committed a war crime, especially something as atrocious as poisoning (using biological or a chemical weapon) on a civilian population. 

I agree with the war crime sentiment, but I don't know how I feel about the technicality of occupation or even that Doma was properly occupied. I think that might be beside the point, though, because absent any overarching war crimes tribunal, it probably doesn't matter who holds him in terms of being the "right" group.

Because we have no choice but to apply our own moral codes to the situation, Blitzsage's response makes the most sense to me. As I've gotten older, I've started to question the death penalty a bit - I don't have an objection to a jury of peers invoking it, but I don't think I could myself - and therefore I would vote to keep him locked up based only on the information I had available at the time. Obviously, given the rest of the plot, that wasn't the best choice, but you have to pick based on what you're supposed to know, right?

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Quote (Rangers51 @ 10th March 2015 07:55)

I agree with the war crime sentiment, but I don't know how I feel about the technicality of occupation or even that Doma was properly occupied. I think that might be beside the point, though, because absent any overarching war crimes tribunal, it probably doesn't matter who holds him in terms of being the "right" group.

Because we have no choice but to apply our own moral codes to the situation, Blitzsage's response makes the most sense to me. As I've gotten older, I've started to question the death penalty a bit - I don't have an objection to a jury of peers invoking it, but I don't think I could myself - and therefore I would vote to keep him locked up based only on the information I had available at the time. Obviously, given the rest of the plot, that wasn't the best choice, but you have to pick based on what you're supposed to know, right?

Wow. When did this discussion get so deep?!

If I were to make a decision based on the concept that I only knew as much (if that) as the main characters...

I'd probably choose to keep him in jail, or pardon him.

I have reasoning for both, before anyone jumps the gun.

The reason for keeping him in jail is fairly straightforward - Firstly, if he's amoral enough to poison an entire castle full of people, he's probably otherwise dangerous. But at the same time, his behavior is strange enough to warrant an insanity defense. So, I would keep him in jail, to avoid any further damage to himself or anyone else.


As for the pardon, my logic was this; Why are we so worried about Kefka, when it should be Gestahl himself whose fate should be decided? Yes, Kefka was responsible for the poisoning of Doma, but who's to say (from the standpoint of someone who doesn't know the rest of the plot) that Gestahl didn't order him to? Even if Kefka did it himself, Gestahl obviously approved. Since the Emperor is untouchable, however, I would decide to pardon Kefka rather than let Gestahl (the "real" enemy) use him as a scapegoat.


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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Well, for the pardoning issue, I'll bring a little of my personal politics into the issue. I am in support of prison reform, and even more radically, prison abolitionism. The Wikipedia article gives more info about it, but basically I support transforming the prison system to a more humane system with more of a focus on rehabilitation, probation, community work, etc., rather than punishment.

In that scenario, I could consider "pardoning" him, in the sense that, instead of being punished per se, at least in the way people are punished in the current prison system, he could undergo psychological evaluation and treatment. And if the treatment does not work, he could still be kept under personalized care to prevent harm to himself and others. But he wouldn't be punished in the way we mean it today for what are clearly psychological issues that have not been addressed.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 11th March 2015 22:09)

In that scenario, I could consider "pardoning" him, in the sense that, instead of being punished per se, at least in the way people are punished in the current prison system, he could undergo psychological evaluation and treatment. And if the treatment does not work, he could still be kept under personalized care to prevent harm to himself and others. But he wouldn't be punished in the way we mean it today for what are clearly psychological issues that have not been addressed.

I can certainly agree with that. I think, at that point, he deserved some psychiatric help, rather than just being left in prison.
That being said, your idea of having him under specific, supervised care seems to be the best option, because it would ensure that he couldn't hurt himself or others, and it would hopefully help him psychologically.


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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Quote (Eagle Caller @ 9th March 2015 09:21)

You're asking for legal consultation. What are you going to do with it?

Uhhh, no, he's not. Morals and laws/moral justice and legal justice certainly aren't the same thing and in practice, often don't coincide. That's why a legally just outcome can often cause a public outcry.


Anyway, to answer the question, personally, I'd be all for killing him, but that wouldn't make it the morally correct decision. I think I have to side with Blitz and R51. They've given a pretty comprehensive answer that it's hard to add to.

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We apologise for the inconvenience

Quote (Stiltzkin @ 12th March 2015 12:45)

Anyway, to answer the question, personally, I'd be all for killing him, but that wouldn't make it the morally correct decision. I think I have to side with Blitz and R51. They've given a pretty comprehensive answer that it's hard to add to.

Most people are for choosing execution. But I'm glad you can consider the morals here.

Honestly, I didn't really want to kill him until after Leo's death. Until that point, I didn't think he really deserved it.

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Quote (Ker @ 12th March 2015 21:19)

Quote (Stiltzkin @ 12th March 2015 12:45)

Anyway, to answer the question, personally, I'd be all for killing him, but that wouldn't make it the morally correct decision. I think I have to side with Blitz and R51. They've given a pretty comprehensive answer that it's hard to add to.

Most people are for choosing execution. But I'm glad you can consider the morals here.

Honestly, I didn't really want to kill him until after Leo's death. Until that point, I didn't think he really deserved it.

Oh, I absolutely think he did. If anyone deserves the death penalty, he would be one. I wouldn't execute him, but that's only because I don't believe in the death penalty, not because he didn't deserve it. I don't see how he would deserve to die more over killing one individual that is a soldier than he would for killing an entire castle of innocent people. That was a crime against humanity.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Psychiatric evaluation. Interesting.

That would indicate he had some sort of mental illness. While he has some sort of obsession and possibly a sadistic tendency, Kefka problems with his personality and not mental problems. The human mind isn't something that can be programmed like a computer, and one could spend decades to no avail trying to convince someone of Kefka's disposition that he should feel bad about what he was doing. He already knows what he was doing was wrong, but in his mind, they were simply vermin and in the way. He would see anyone tending to him as exactly the same thing.

There are other remedies for personality disorders, but it can be argued that those treatments are extremely inhumane. Those would be:

Either surgical or chemical lobotomy, psychotropics that serve to keep him in a state unable to use mental faculty, or simply locking him away in containment.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Quote (chevleclair @ 13th March 2015 03:51)

The human mind isn't something that can be programmed like a computer, and one could spend decades to no avail trying to convince someone of Kefka's disposition that he should feel bad about what he was doing. He already knows what he was doing was wrong, but in his mind, they were simply vermin and in the way.

We had a debate on here quite a while ago about whether Kefka is insane or not. I can't remember exactly what I said, but I was basically arguing what you are now. Admittedly, such an answer might appeal to me because it somehow means that he's responsible for his crimes.

I only partially agree with your first statement though. Yes, human beings can't be programmed, thankfully. They can be indoctrinated and misled, etc., but once personality is set it is difficult to change one's positions. However, our minds are biological systems, they function like machinery and they can have "mechanical failures" that might be able to be fixed or at least be alleviated. I see it (meaning the effect of the Magitek infusion) as allowing for at least three possibilities: 1) Kefka's brain was physically altered (meaning, in other words, a mental illness); 2) Psychological trauma was caused during the procedure that negatively affected his personality; or 3) The procedure gave power, influence, perhaps even fame, to someone who already had sociopathic views that were simply amplified as a result of his change in environment.

Either possibility bars, in my view, execution. Like I said earlier, I'm absolutely against the death penalty in all cases, but especially in the case for Kefka. There are possibly procedures or forms of therapy in any case that can help a person handle each one of these issues. Whether it is physical or psychological, and even if we couldn't cure him, we could try to find ways to help him cope with his illness or affliction, in whatever form it takes.

My solution does two things: it eliminates execution, because there is always hope for recovery (new techniques and procedures can be invented, after all), but it also amends what I find problematic with the "Leave him in jail" option. In FFVI and in our system in the real world, what that option really means is abandonment. We do such a terrible job at providing a strong assistive framework for people that may have mental illnesses, personality disorders, psychological trauma, etc. It's one of the biggest problems in our system, and it's often why people tend to go back to prison again and again. It may be futile in the end, but at least it's trying to fix a problem in a more humane way than what we currently do, which is leave people to fester in jail cells.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 12th March 2015 22:33)

Oh, I absolutely think he did. If anyone deserves the death penalty, he would be one. I wouldn't execute him, but that's only because I don't believe in the death penalty, not because he didn't deserve it. I don't see how he would deserve to die more over killing one individual that is a soldier than he would for killing an entire castle of innocent people. That was a crime against humanity.

Personally, at that point, I didn't really feel like he deserved it. This is because, while the poisoning of Doma was indeed terrible, I found it hard to pity those people. Don't take me for a monster; hear me out.
I tend to be really literal, and I know I've mentioned this before, but to reiterate- if your castle is defending against an enemy, and the river that is your water supply turns bright purple , you should probably not drink it.
If you didn't choose to question the obviously strange and likely non-potable water, and drink it anyway...
Well, I can't say I'll be sorry for you, or even care that you died.
I'll point out that this is simply how I felt, not what's "right".


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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

The water only turned really bright purple when Kefka first added the poison to the water. If you go back and look at the screenshots in Doma as Cyan realizes what is going on, the water does not look bright purple. It's only slightly purple. Now, I don't believe you should take anything literally (after all, they're sprites; I'm also sure there were more than 10 or so people in the castle), but even if we look at it literally we never see them drink the water. The poison could have gotten into their plumbing system before it became visible around the castle.

Even so, they are in a siege situation, and poisoning their only source of water is a war crime. Whether it killed them instantly or not is irrelevant. You can't blame the victims and exonerate the war criminal in that situation.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Strangely enough, I decided to run through the game again, and a possible solution more or less jumped out at me. Once again, this takes some amount of cruelty, but if anything is better than death, then this makes sense.

J. Michael Straczynsky discussed the possibility in Babylon 5- death of personality. You don't kill the individual, you simply "kill" the personality. Simply put, you completely fry certain synaptic relays that relate to aspects with his personality and open new paths, thereby "programming" a new personality. Final Fantasy VI HAS the means to do exactly that. Ironically, it was something of Kefka's own creation that would make this possible (with a few tweaks here and there). The answer would be the slave crown he'd used on Terra.

Keep in mind, the process would take away all aspects of his old personality- his memories, his talents, possibly even menial abilities such as short term memory and the ability to walk and talk.

Effectively, you are inducing a non-fatal stroke.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Well, you are right about not always being literal. I apologize for that, but it's just how I am. That's not to say I don't try to be less literal. Please note that this is simply how I felt, not what is actually true. At the time, I felt that he did not deserve execution. That doesn't mean I was right, and if the poisoning happened in a way my brain would accept it as not illogical (Like say, the water only turning slightly purple to begin with, and the color turning transparent), then I likely would have thought he deserved it at that point.

chevleclair (so sorry if I misspelled that) Your idea about the slave crown was fascinating ... Cruel, in a way, but I think it'd be worth a try, in his case.

This post has been edited by Ker on 14th March 2015 14:59

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Quote (Ker @ 14th March 2015 10:58)

Well, you are right about not always being literal. I apologize for that, but it's just how I am. That's not to say I don't try to be less literal. Please note that this is simply how I felt, not what is actually true. At the time, I felt that he did not deserve execution. That doesn't mean I was right, and if the poisoning happened in a way my brain would accept it as not illogical (Like say, the water only turning slightly purple to begin with, and the color turning transparent), then I likely would have thought he deserved it at that point.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is that his guilt should not hinge upon their "stupidity." Imagine that you are locked up in your castle, and I poison your drinking water in a way that is instantly noticeable, say it has an odor and is visible. It doesn't matter whether you and your people drink the water, it does not change my intent. In fact, I don't think it would even change anything if no one died from the poison, because I still would be using weaponry that would be cruel (AKA, inflicting one's water supply through a chemical attack). My action would definitely be a war crime, and might be considered a crime against humanity because I am effectively causing, or trying to cause, genocide.

Now, if we think of your point as a criticism of the game, I would find it more valid. They don't make it clear as to how the other Domans are poisoned and why Cyan and the other guard are not. Of course, they were limited in technology; they couldn't have FMV showing them being poisoned and the sprites didn't have a drinking animation. It forces us to come up with explanations as to why they would drink purple water. I think it's safe to say that they wouldn't have knowingly placed themselves into harm's way. For that reason, as I continue to watch the scene over and over (and by the way, this discussion has led me to watch that scene the most amount of times I've ever done). From what I gather, they don't even appear to drink the water. Perhaps they are just exposed to its vapors.

Quote (chevleclair)

Effectively, you are inducing a non-fatal stroke.

That's why I believe the Babylon 5 option you suggested would just be another form of murder. So, killing synapses would effectively mean killing him. However, I have heard that, by looking at certain regions of the brain, we may be able to see physical differences in a psychopathic brain that may cause the affliction. If we could resolve these deficiencies in some way, I think we could have the same result that you're discussing. I think that could be humane, and could also fit with the rehabilitation plan for Kefka.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I recently read some interesting material that actually defended retributive justice in a thought-provoking manner:
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/03/ca...ld-not-end.html

Mostly it's from a catholic perspective, so not everyone will relate.

This post has been edited by finalalias on 15th March 2015 02:21

I say execute him. He is a madman guilty of a serious war crime resulting in the deaths of presumably hundreds of innocent civilians. Sorry, my pacifist side doesn't go that far. If you want peace, you have to get rid of whatever is disturbing the peace. Sometimes that means killing someone.

Neat topic! I like to try to be moral in games where options are given (particularly when it's a game like, say Elder Scrolls, where your decisions tend to have more impact). I like Blitzsage's response. I'm firmly against the death penalty myself (oh the irony of my name -- which is actually based on Vincent's ultimate weapon in FFVII), so I decide to leave him in prison.

But I recognize the intricacies of the decision. If the goal of one's justice code is deterrence, the death penalty would seem like the more logical choice (though it should be said that in our real world, the death penalty isn't any more likely to deter future crime than life imprisonment); the same goes for if the basis of one's justice code is to punish wrongdoers. If the goal of one's justice code is to be humane, however - or to refrain from getting blood on its own figurative hands - then life imprisonment is best.

The Returners, rather interestingly, are a bit of a terrorist organization; their cause may be good, but they don't have jurisdiction. The result seems more akin to overthrowing Sadam Hussein. The issue of jurisdiction raises the interesting question of the basis of law. If law is based in the nation's legal system, then Narshe, if it had captured Kefka, would not be obligated to treat him as a citizen (since Kefka is not a citizen of Narshe). This means that, if a constitution or codex is the basis of rights, Narshe would be justified in torturing and/or killing Kefka in any way they saw fit. If law is understood as based in something like a soul or the inherent dignity of a human person, then citizenship and jurisdiction shouldn't make a difference.

As someone who believes in an invaluable human soul, then I would say that even Kefka's life deserves to be spared, and that furthermore he should be treated humanely and even compassionately by whatever penal system he might happen to be submitted to.

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Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

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Quote (RavenLalonde @ 16th March 2015 04:16)

I say execute him.  He is a madman guilty of a serious war crime resulting in the deaths of presumably hundreds of innocent civilians.

Maybe, but Gestahl was really the one responsible for it because of his orders and manipulation of Kefka. Kefka was just the one Gestahl could use for everyone to hate. The relationship is kind of like the one between Darth Vader and the Emperor Palpatine, Vader seems like he's the main force of evil in Star Wars but in reality pretty much all of the events that happen are because of the Emperor's plans in the background.

This post has been edited by alasta on 17th March 2015 06:05

There's where I disagree with Blitzsage.

I tend to balk at the words "never" and "always", but find myself using them frequently, then often regretting it later.

It's a given that Gestahl is evil. Any punishment he gets is definitely deserved. This doesn't absolve Kefka, who not only performed the act, but did so gladly. It might cause him to be punished, he most definitely could have refused (either covertly or overtly) to carry out the order (which at this point in the game, you are actually unaware that Gestahl had given that order).

I know the word "imprison" seems to be a dirty word because it's punishment, any other means of "treatment" also act as a type of imprisonment and rehabilitation. You could forcefully change the way he is, which has been the alternative, but that's kind of an Arthur Clarke/George Orwell "Big Brother" forced conformity scenario.

Punishment needs to happen in this case. Whether it's severe (death or life imprisonment, or minor (prison time/community service), it needs to happen. Though, with someone as horrible as Kefka is, execution would probably be the most expedient means.

I'm not normally a person who adovcates capital punishment, but Kefka performed the act, regardless of any alteration to his person in the past, he's well aware of what he's doing and its moral implications. If given the chance, he would do it again.

As one writer noted "Sometimes, in the hearts of a human being, there is just planted a bad seed"




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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Quote (chevleclair @ 17th March 2015 08:57)

You could forcefully change the way he is, which has been the alternative, but that's kind of an Arthur Clarke/George Orwell "Big Brother" forced conformity scenario.

As one writer noted "Sometimes, in the hearts of a human being, there is just planted a bad seed"

It hasn't been my alternative. In fact, earlier, when you mentioned Babylon 5's destroying synapses, I said it would be akin to murder. What I was trying to discuss was some new research into psychopathic brains, where certain regions in the brain have been found to either be over- or under-responsive. What I was suggesting is that we might yet discover procedures that can solve those problems. But that research is over truly unhealthy or mentally-ill brains. I would support (if it is possible) ways to help make unhealthy brains healthy so that they can function normally.

I personally consider myself to be an anarchist. To put it mildly, I am as wary of Orwellian conformity as anyone else. But it's also why I'm just as troubled by the other quote I brought up, which was at the end of your post. There is good and bad or, more accurately, there is the potential for good and bad in all of us. And I also think that there is hope for all of us to reform (not conform), to rehabilitate or recover (not to be altered).

Quote (chevleclair)

It's a given that Gestahl is evil. Any punishment he gets is definitely deserved. This doesn't absolve Kefka, who not only performed the act, but did so gladly. It might cause him to be punished, he most definitely could have refused (either covertly or overtly) to carry out the order (which at this point in the game, you are actually unaware that Gestahl had given that order).

As you said, I don't like to use the word "always" either. Is it likely that he would be reformed? No, but there's always the possibility. Meanwhile, execution is, as you say, "expedient," but it is also absolute. You don't get a second chance there; you don't come back from that punishment.

I would, however, not that there are many punishments that might encourage or discourage behavior, but there are also rewards that can do so as well, and unfortunately we often do not look at the rewards portion of the punishment/rewards incentives structure. It has gone virtually without question or mention in our discussion of Kefka's sanity or guilt, that Kefka was completely enabled by an imperialist system that allowed him to act in the manner that he does. Not unlike our system, Kefka lived under a system that amplified his crimes.

If we truly want to stop crime, then yes, we should punish (but in a way that helps people rehabilitate) and we should also think of ways to transform our system so that bad behavior is not rewarded (like, for instance, wrecking the environment of the economy for profit).

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Praise Be To Helix!

Then this is my answer. First, attempt reforming Kefka.
If that doesn't work within a set time frame, or does something violent to violate his "probation" a set number of times, fry his brain with chevleclair's idea. At least, without any memories, personality, or ability to walk or talk, he could be given a second chance at life. Of course, he'd likely have to be kept by a neutral power, so as to avoid anyone with a grudge (i.e., Cyan, Edgar, or even Imperial soldiers) from doing him harm.

Quote

What I was trying to discuss was some new research into psychopathic brains, where certain regions in the brain have been found to either be over- or under-responsive. What I was suggesting is that we might yet discover procedures that can solve those problems.

That sounds akin to a lobotomy.
Given the effects a lobotomy can inflict, I think chevleclair's idea seemed more humane.

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.

Edit

Sorry for the double post. Button messed up.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 18th March 2015 04:14

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Ker @ 17th March 2015 21:22)

At least, without any memories, personality, or ability to walk or talk, he could be given a second chance at life.

How is what you're describing not like a lobotomy? What I was discussing would do none of that. No, the procedure I'm describing is hypothetical. It doesn't exist. But let's say, for instance, that we discover that an abnormality in the brain causes a lower level of a specific chemical that contributes to less aggression. A normal person's brain, this abnormality wouldn't exist, and the normally functioning brain creates that chemical which cools you off when you're angry. Or let's say another system within the brain allows someone to feel remorse, and an abnormality in this system physically causes someone to lack remorse at the suffering of others. All I was saying is that if it is ever possible to do so, that might be a way of helping one's brain function normally, without changing anything about their personality.

I'm not suggesting that we have anything in modern medicine near that possibility yet. And I don't think that chevleclair's option is any more realistic of an option than mine is (after all, it's from a sci-fi show). That's why I think the medical questions are a digression. When I talk about rehabilitation, I don't mean any procedure; I mean what one might think of: therapy, classes, support groups, social workers, etc. I was trying to make the argument that our current justice system does not provide those options (or barely does so), and it definitely doesn't emphasize them.

Quote (Ker)

If that doesn't work within a set time frame, or does something violent to violate his "probation" a set number of times, fry his brain with chevleclair's idea.

And you don't have to set up a time frame. If you've identified him as a danger, you could easily give him a life sentence, and continue to work with him. If he never is reformed, then he's not reformed, but he's also kept from doing harm to others. If he shows progress, you can allow him a bit more freedom incrementally. He would still be under a team's watchful eye, and most privileges revoked until he could demonstrate reformed behavior. 1) He's technically being punished by losing his freedom and being placed under the custody of others, 2) He has a team of psychiatrists, social workers, doctors, etc. working to help him, not just punishing him, and 3) He's kept from harming others. Forget the brain procedures, that's just a series of "what-ifs". Attempted rehabilitation and life sentencing with option for parole is more humane than execution, and it protects people just as well.

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Praise Be To Helix!