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CoN 20th Anniversary: 1997-2017
Was avalanche evil?

Posted: 10th August 2017 08:33

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I was wondering:Was avalanche originally evil?

I was watching this video and rumor has it that before barret joined avalanche, the previous members were really horrible terrorists who cared nothing for the lives of people.I heard that this info was in one of the movies.


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Posted: 11th August 2017 20:21

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Are you able to provide any sources or links to where you're reading this?

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Posted: 11th August 2017 21:49

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[URL=http://punctualdork.com/post/72440966426/final-fantasy-viis-avalanche-just-as-bad-as]Just found this that two members of Avalanche were Elfe and Fuhito

[/URL]Archaengia reviews FF7

So it makes me wonder then.This guy mentions it being in before crisis.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 11th August 2017 21:55

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Posted: 12th August 2017 12:08

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Okay, now I understand. I think the simple answer to your question is no.

The longer answer:

The AVALANCHE of Before Crisis is not the AVALANCHE of FFVII. In Before Crisis, you play as the Turks fighting against an early incarnation of AVALANCHE, and yes, this AVALANCHE is much more hostile, much more ruthless, and pursuing a much more extreme agenda than the one we see in FFVII. This perception is obviously exacerbated by the fact you play from the perspective of the Turks. Is this AVALANCHE evil? Possibly. Its leaders, perhaps at least.

Barret's AVALANCHE is not the same organisation - it doesn't have the same aims as in Before Crisis, nor does it have the same personnel (to my knowledge). So, put simply, the previous incarnation is irrelevant to the question of whether Barret's AVALANCHE is evil.

So, in FFVII, is AVALANCHE evil? I guess it's all about perspective - and FFVII is a gaming great exactly because it is not all cast in black and white. (Most of) the good guys aren't pure good. (Most of) the bad guys aren't pure evil. AVALANCHE is a terrorist organisation from the perspective of ShinRa. To many ordinary citizens, the same is probably true - even if they support AVALANCHE's motives and the fight for freedom from ShinRa, they would probably rather it didn't involve bombing things. Yes, they cause deaths. Yes, they even kill people.

If you believe their cause, they do it for a good reason, and because it's necessary - and so they are not evil - they are simply willing to do the necessary dirty work to save everybody.

If you believe in ShinRa, then yes, AVALANCHE are terrorists, and you may feel they are evil.

However, I think the word "evil" is probably the problem here. Regardless of your allegiance, are either party evil? I think evil is a very strong word, and it requires a pure malice - destruction and murder and horror for its own sake, not for a greater cause. In life, there are very few evil people. Most wars are not fought between good and evil, but between different ideologies who both believe they are justified, and both probably started from a legitimate opinion. In FFVII, I think the same is true. there are what, at most 2 evil characters in the game - and I don't think AVALANCHE is either of them.

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Posted: 12th August 2017 14:24

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Thats not to say the company is evil as there are a lot of people who aren't evil and do it because they are paid to without thinking.

But the president who is in control is willfully ignorant of the damage caused to the planet and allows the weapons manufacturing to go on.

Edited now no mention of he who shall not be named

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 14th August 2017 17:40

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Posted: 13th August 2017 18:11

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Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 12th August 2017 15:24)
Wouldn't it be fair to call hojo evil and even president shinra? even cloud says he's rotten to the core or was that tifa? i forget.

Thats not to say the company is evil as there are a lot of people who aren't evil and do it because they are paid to without thinking.

But the president who is in control is willfully ignorant of the damage caused to the planet and  allows the weapons manufacturing to go on.

Hojo on the other hand is warped(totally nuts)

I mean he put without even the least bit of concern a jenova cell in sephiroth while sephiroth was still in his moms womb, But i understand what you mean.

I heard that president hojo said what have i done? Question is:does president shinra have remorse at all? I mean if he did why wouldn't he stop drilling for energy? Rufus doesn't seem much better either, since he's all talk and continues to allow things to go as they do.

I'm fairly certain there's a different thread elsewhere on this forum which discusses whether Hojo is evil or not, and that discussion is best had there - but you started this thread about AVALANCHE.

This post has been edited by Stiltzkin on 13th August 2017 18:11

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Posted: 14th August 2017 17:38

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Your right but i was responding because you said the world isn't black and white so i mentioned evil characters and i even mentioned shinra doing what he did and seems oblivious to the damage to the world.I mean he keeps sucking energy out.

Also:Couldn't avalanche just blow up the mako reactors without taking out one sector of the plate? I mean that is a awful lot of people who died because of avalanche.There must have been a better way to make a point without costing so many lives.Yeah shinra what they are doing is bad, but killing that many people doesn't it also put them on shinra level?

Also:You would think avalanche would have gone after shinra before and succeed to kill him.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 14th August 2017 17:39

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Posted: 14th August 2017 17:47

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Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 14th August 2017 18:38)
Also:Couldn't avalanche just blow up the mako reactors without taking out one sector of the plate?

ShinRa brought down the plate, not AVALANCHE.

As for whether AVALANCHE could/should have gone after President ShinRa sooner, who knows? Maybe you're right, they should have. Then again, how often do freedom fighters go straight for an assassination attempt on the government leader? Either way, just because they didn't do it sooner doesn't make them any more evil, does it?

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Posted: 15th August 2017 08:27

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Thats true that not often to people who are rebels don't go after the president.

So when elfo and that other guy were together what was the group called if not avalanche? just wondering.



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Posted: 15th December 2017 04:04

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A better question is can people be evil?

Yes.

Do they label it whatever they want.

Yes.

What do they care about most.

Furthering their agenda.

BTW-why did no one try to work out a deal? The people you know in FFVII as Avalanche work to protect people. Shinra is self-serving as it murdered people and conducted experiments for personal advancement.

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Posted: 15th December 2017 22:07

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Quote (Eagle Caller @ 15th December 2017 05:04)
A better question is can people be evil?

Yes.

Do they label it whatever they want.

Yes.

What do they care about most.

Furthering their agenda.

It must be incredible to live in a world as binary as yours. Unfortunately, as simplistic as it would be, in our world I don't think you can apply that logic universally.

Quote (Eagle Caller @ 15th December 2017 05:04)

BTW-why did no one try to work out a deal? The people you know in FFVII as Avalanche work to protect people. Shinra is self-serving as it murdered people and conducted experiments for personal advancement.


I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you asking the question or answering it? Because I think your second sentence answers your first.

I'm not sure what deal could have been struck between AVALANCHE and ShinRa. Until later in the game when a greater evil/threat to both parties forces an uneasy alliance, they are too diametrically opposed. One wants freedom from oppression for the people and planet - the other wants to further corporate domination and profit.

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Posted: 16th December 2017 01:56

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Quote (Stiltzkin @ 15th December 2017 22:07)
Quote (Eagle Caller @ 15th December 2017 05:04)
A better question is can people be evil?

Yes.

Do they label it whatever they want.

Yes.

What do they care about most.

Furthering their agenda.

It must be incredible to live in a world as binary as yours. Unfortunately, as simplistic as it would be, in our world I don't think you can apply that logic universally.

Quote (Eagle Caller @ 15th December 2017 05:04)

BTW-why did no one try to work out a deal? The people you know in FFVII as Avalanche work to protect people. Shinra is self-serving as it murdered people and conducted experiments for personal advancement.


I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you asking the question or answering it? Because I think your second sentence answers your first.

I'm not sure what deal could have been struck between AVALANCHE and ShinRa. Until later in the game when a greater evil/threat to both parties forces an uneasy alliance, they are too diametrically opposed. One wants freedom from oppression for the people and planet - the other wants to further corporate domination and profit.

Magictek Slayer is the one who asked. It is clearly a 'yes' or 'no' question.

I didn't stop MS from elaborating on what kind of answer he/she wanted.

I think the label 'Avalanche' can be evil but I don't believe that about its team members.

This post has been edited by Eagle Caller on 16th December 2017 01:58

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Posted: 18th December 2017 15:17

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Quote (Stiltzkin @ 12th August 2017 08:08)
So, in FFVII, is AVALANCHE evil? I guess it's all about perspective - and FFVII is a gaming great exactly because it is not all cast in black and white. (Most of) the good guys aren't pure good. (Most of) the bad guys aren't pure evil. AVALANCHE is a terrorist organisation from the perspective of ShinRa. To many ordinary citizens, the same is probably true - even if they support AVALANCHE's motives and the fight for freedom from ShinRa, they would probably rather it didn't involve bombing things. Yes, they cause deaths. Yes, they even kill people.

If you believe their cause, they do it for a good reason, and because it's necessary - and so they are not evil - they are simply willing to do the necessary dirty work to save everybody.

If you believe in ShinRa, then yes, AVALANCHE are terrorists, and you may feel they are evil.

However, I think the word "evil" is probably the problem here. Regardless of your allegiance, are either party evil? I think evil is a very strong word, and it requires a pure malice - destruction and murder and horror for its own sake, not for a greater cause. In life, there are very few evil people. Most wars are not fought between good and evil, but between different ideologies who both believe they are justified, and both probably started from a legitimate opinion. In FFVII, I think the same is true. there are what, at most 2 evil characters in the game - and I don't think AVALANCHE is either of them.

Fully agreed. And, honestly, I think the game would be better if there were a bit more moral uncertainty cast on AVALANCHE -- or at least more exploration of the morally ambiguous space they occupy.

There certainly is some of this, but it tends to get pretty quickly swept under the rugs of an ends-justify-means argument. This is of course an available argument and perhaps even the right one under the circumstances, but it's by no means without its own moral consequences and shortcomings. ShinRa themselves are somewhat based on this argument: yes we're destroying the planet and there's income inequality, but as a result we've given the people technology.

If Don Cormeo were less of a blatant creep, he could make for an interesting third position in this argument. That is, if he were something more like a Godfather-type mob boss, he would represent an approach to oppression (ShinRa) that rivals revolution (AVALANCHE): gaming the system (and thereby leaving it intact) to protect one's own pocket of it.

That would be the lower-consequence / less-death approach, but it's obviously not a good one. If the game presented it as an actual approach and not just crappy, it would help position AVALANCHE's approach as the better one, despite its flaws,

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Posted: 19th December 2017 04:44

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Quote (Stiltzkin)
AVALANCHE is a terrorist organisation from the perspective of ShinRa. To many ordinary citizens, the same is probably true - even if they support AVALANCHE's motives and the fight for freedom from ShinRa, they would probably rather it didn't involve bombing things. Yes, they cause deaths. Yes, they even kill people.

If you believe their cause, they do it for a good reason, and because it's necessary - and so they are not evil - they are simply willing to do the necessary dirty work to save everybody.


I actually don't think that's dependent on perspective, and neither do the characters in the end. They admit that their actions are terrorism. They engage in violent acts, and that is true regardless of the righteousness of their cause.

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Posted: 22nd December 2017 17:51

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 18th December 2017 16:17)
If Don Cormeo were less of a blatant creep, he could make for an interesting third position in this argument. That is, if he were something more like a Godfather-type mob boss, he would represent an approach to oppression (ShinRa) that rivals revolution (AVALANCHE): gaming the system (and thereby leaving it intact) to protect one's own pocket of it.

That would be the lower-consequence / less-death approach, but it's obviously not a good one. If the game presented it as an actual approach and not just crappy, it would help position AVALANCHE's approach as the better one, despite its flaws,

DP, I love this idea. Any chance we can petition for getting it into the remake wink.gif ?


Quote (BlitzSage @ 19th December 2017 05:44)
I actually don't think that's dependent on perspective, and neither do the characters in the end. They admit that their actions are terrorism. They engage in violent acts, and that is true regardless of the righteousness of their cause.


Blitz - good point, though apologies if my earlier post implied I didn't think the same. I wasn't trying to suggest that their actions per se are 'good' even from their perspective - rather, I was trying to make the point DP makes better - that it's an ends-justify-the-means perspective.

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