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Because I've done enough off-topic defiling of the thread about the famous "Son of a Submariner" line from Woolsey, and because I kicked off a run through the Japanese version of the game today (recording it, to boot!), I thought I'd open the floor up for anyone who's got questions or gripes about various parts of the game as translated, whether by Woolsey or anybody else.

What I'm not claiming to be able to do:
I cannot--nor will I attempt to claim to be able to--give you a professional quality error-free translation--or a full script--or a ROM-hackable thing of some kind. I wish my skills were that good, but if they were, I'd be working in the industry. I'm not. So there we are.

What I am offering to do:
If you have a line or scene you'd like examined and compared in its original to any of various English translations, I can do that. I can put it upside your translation(s) of choice and offer my opinion, based on my experience with the language, as to how well those translations captured the nuance of the line. From time to time, I may not have a solid answer, but I will let you know when that is the case.

A (Very Long) Example For Your Perusal:
What follows is an example of what I can do. Enjoy or ignore, as you prefer.

One thing that came up over on the submariner thread was Kefka's use of pronouns, and as part of that discussion, I mentioned Kefka's scene with Tina/Terra in her Narshe flashback.

Here is the Japanese dialogue from just before he fits her with the slave crown:

Original:
ケフカ：
魔導の力を持つ娘か・・・
ヒッヒッヒッ・・・
この、あやつりの輪をつければ僕様の思うがままに動くのだあ！

Romanized:
Kefka:
Madou no chikara wo motsu musume ka...
Hii-hii-hii...
Kono, ayatsuri no wa wo tsukereba boku-sama no omou ga ma ma ni ugoku no daa!

Explanation and Comparison:
Taking this line by line, our first bit is "madou no chikara wo motsu musume ka..."

Madou (魔導) is the Japanese equivalent of the term MagiTek. The 'ma' is the same as the first kanji in 'mahou' (magic), but the 'dou' is a character that typically suggests guidance, advancement, or a similar idea. In my head, the term makes sense as "advancement through magic," whereas the more traditional mahou (魔法), from which madou is distinguished in the JP script just as Magic/MagiTek are distinguished, is more the 'system/way of magic.'

'Madou no chikara wo motsu' is to hold or possess the power of madou. 'Musume' is a young woman or girl. So this line, which ends with the question particle 'ka' is basically

The girl with the power of MagiTek...?

I'm going with 'the girl' over 'a girl' since Kefka is aware of Tina's existence (i.e. she's not news to him) and because she, as a natural magic user, is unique, distinct from artificially infused users like Kefka and Celes.

The next line is just Kefka's usual "Hee-hee-hee" laugh. It's in katakana, and it's really not that much different from how he laughs in English.

Now, the line after that is a bit more challenging:

"Kono, ayatsuri no wa wo tsukereba boku-sama no omou ga ma ma ni ugoku no daa!" means, very basically, something like 'with this manipulating circlet, [you/it/whatever] will move through my thoughts!"

'Kono' is just 'this.'

'Ayatsuri no wa' is the Japanese term for the Slave Crown...but the meaning's a bit different.

Ayatsuri can mean a couple of things. It derives from the verb ayatsuru (操る), which means to manipulate something or someone, to operate some kind of device or thing, or to work the strings of a puppet. Thus, 'ayatsuri' is more or less manipulation, control, or puppetry.

Wa in this case is written 輪, or ring. Since it clearly goes on her head, and since there is a specific term for a ring worn on the finger (yubi-wa; finger-ring), this is maybe more properly a circlet than a crown.

So...same basic meaning, but the Japanese term has the connotation of puppetry--not just that Tina's not free (i.e. she's a person who is a slave), but that she's a puppet in the literal sense (i.e. she's not even a person; she's a thing).

Tsukereba is the conditional ('if') form of tsukeru, which, because it's kanjiless here (arg!), could mean one of several different--but thankfully related--ideas. My top two picks would be 'to activate or switch on,' or 'to affix or put onto something.' Since Kefka seems not to have put it on her yet, I'm going with the latter.

The next term up is boku-sama (literally something like "little lord me"), which is how Kefka's referring to himself here. You can see my post on the Submariner thread for a detailed look, but basically it's...weird. And arrogant...and a good bit childish...and hard as hell to accurately render in English.

The next phrase leaves me wondering whether it has a double meaning--but I suspect I'm misreading in some way.

Considering that the slave crown in Japanese has implications of physical puppetry, he could be (and likely is) talking about his thoughts making Tina move physically. But it could also possibly mean, in a symbolic sense, that if he is able to control the living weapon that is Tina, then his plans (thoughts) will begin be put into action (move).

And considering that it seems Kefka's plan all along is to go above and beyond Gestahl/Ghastra and revive the Triad/Goddesses/Whatever, he could also be talking about this. Though I do lean toward him just talking about her because she's the natural target of his speech, as she's the only other person present, making her the more or less obvious target of the directional particle 'ni.'.

So the conundrum would be this: if he is talking about more than just her, too much information up front could spoil the reveal of Kefka's plan in the factory, so you can't lead too much with this line if you choose to take it that way. We're maybe 10-15 minutes into the game here. So the more obvious and literal approach is to present it as it directly relates to Tina. And it's likely the most accurate one, and this other is static from my brain.

And if I recall correctly, all the English translations I've been exposed to have used this approach. And it works.

So...phew. How to make all that make sense in English and keep it in three lines?

(This is why I can't hate Woolsey. I just can't. Fault him for a few bad errors here and there, yeah--but I can't just hate on him for hating's sake.)

Here's how I would do those three lines:

Kefka:
The girl born with the power of magic, hmm...?
Hee-hee-hee...
With this circlet, Kefka will make you dance on his strings just...so!

As you can see, I took a bit of liberty with the last line and chose to lean into the puppet imagery. If we wanted to go more literal, we could do so, but I'm also trying to capture Kefka's weirdness here, from his arrogant but childish self-referential language to his unsettling nature in general. Additionally, on the offest of off chances that he's not directly addressing Tina/Terra, he could be using 'you' to refer Gestahl or anyone else he's trying to manipulate through control of Terra. But...eh. The more I look at it, it's likely he's just talking to Tina.

Now, how do my ideas stack up to those of the big dogs? Let's see!

Woolsey:

Quote

My sweet little Magic user...! Uweee... he... he! With this Slave Crown I'll practically OWN you!!

Slattery:

Quote

My sweet little magic user... Uwee-hee-hee! With this slave crown, you'll be all mine!

SkyRender:

Quote

So, this must be the magic user that I've heard oh so much about...
Hehehehehe~!
With this circlet on your head, I will control your thoughts!

...and for some reason, I'm having trouble finding Lina Darkstar's script right now, alas. I hope it's not vanished, because it was fairly solid as I remember it, and I would have preferred to compare.

Anyhow. All of them have Kefka directly addressing Terra. The addition of 'sweet' by Woolsey and Slattery does make him creepier, which is a plus. But both are pretty vague about how or why the crown works, and they don't account for the puppetry connotations, which, to me, seem distinct from slavery connotations.

Additionally, they're both the most vague about Kefka's intentions for employing the crown. I have no proof of it, but I wonder whether this is to avoid any problems with possible censorship? It would seem unlikely, but you never know. I sure wish I could see Woolsey's original draft before NoA got hold of it.

SkyRender is...hm. It's mostly literal, and while it's mostly not technically wrong (and +1 for the use of 'circlet'), it reads...dry to me in comparison. I don't get any weird and creepy Kefka vibes. He seems more matter-of-fact. Additionally, the original seems to indicate to me that it's actions, not thoughts, that will be controlled. Still, there are folks who prefer it, so there you are.

In any case, as I said, I'm opening up the floor here. Do you have a line or a scene you'd like compared and/or broken down? I'm recording them all for ease of recall and reference, so just let me know, and I'll do them as I get to them and/or as work permits.

Sorry for the length! Hopefully it's more interesting than annoying!

This post has been edited by ChickenFriedChocobo on 30th May 2014 03:58

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I don't really have any particular scenes that I want translated, the discussion in the other thread just seemed to progress naturally.

However, I think the idea of recording your playthrough of the original Japanese text, and offering insight into the translation, is a fantastic idea! I would encourage you to upload it to YouTube and post links here.

As you mentioned (either here or on the Submariner thread), this will probably require a great deal of of editing, so it might be more practical to focus on particular scenes instead of doing a "Let's Play" of the entire game.

I'd considered doing an edit-down of the game to just the story elements--just cut out the dungeon crawls and all battles that don't have lines that either 1) substantially differ from Woolsey or Slattery or 2) significantly affect the plot.

It'd be a very slow process, but provided there's any interest, I could certainly do that as time permits. The question would be whether if would be whether you'd want to see just the lines I arrive at, or whether you'd want the detailed breakdown. I feel like something's missing without the breakdown, but that's because I have levels in Moonspeak, and I find the details interesting. Not everyone, I realize, will care.

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I'm definitely interested.

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current games (2024-02-19):
Fairy Fencer F ADF
Pokémon Perfect Crystal

finished so far this year:
Gato Roboto
drowning, drowning
New Super Mario Bros.
TMNT 3: Radical Rescue

tabled: Lost Ruins

It could definitely prove interesting to those who'd like to see how the English and Japanese compare, and would like to know more about the subtlety of the original versus the English translation.

It might also prove interesting for sorting out things like what was implied by the original as refers to lines in the translation that some folks have taken to mean an implication that the Figaro brothers are gay.

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~Status Report~

* Completed... Dragon's Head
* Completed... Soldiers of the Empire: Disciples (release pending)
* In Progress/Undecided... Of Love and Betrayal
* Planning/Assembly... Where it all Began

Zephir, which lines were those? I've never had the sense that the brothers were gay.

In any case, looks like there's interest, so I'll take a look at things and see what I can come up with as time permits.

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This is a signature. You might think that there is something to it...but in fact it is just an ordinary signature.