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Caves of Narshe Forums > Final Fantasy Tactics > The Temperamental Maths of the Level Up/Level Down

Posted by: Kane 15th January 2019 00:24

First off, long time no see, folks. I was given a copy of FFT: WotL for Christmas this time around, so I�ve been enjoying that and all it comes with for a few weeks now. It�s been a fun ride reencountering all the joys I had playing the original, and now I�m just sort of grinding for job points and poaching monsters.

Obviously, that�s not what this thread is about, however. It�s about the Level Up/Level Down trick. Specifically, it�s about Agrias and the mathematics of figuring out how to know what to level her down and then up as. I know I could just level her down as a Dancer and level her back up as a Mime and she�d be more of a physical powerhouse than Orlandu is, but I did that sort of (what I�m going to call) �excessive� tactic nearly 20 years ago and it sucks the fun out of the game.

I want to make her a little bit better all around�on par with the other special characters�stronger, faster, a little more HP, a bit more MA, without sacrificing too much MP.

The problem is that I�m math-dumb�a product of not having taken a math class or done any math more complicated than tipping in nearly 20 years. Can someone explain to me how to do the maths to figure out what will happen (or approximate what will happen) if I take various approaches to leveling a character down as one (or more) jobs and up as others?

To give an example, if I de-level Agrias from 99 to 1 as a Dancer, then unless she spends time as a Mime going back up, she�s going to lose some MA (and she�s going to lose a crap-ton of MP in spite of the Dancer�s poor MP growth). I figure she�s got to spend time as a Mime to get HP, PA, and MA; a Ninja to get Spd and PA and to make sure the HP doesn�t get too crazy high; a Summoner to recoup the MP she�s going to lose through de-leveling and from the Mime�s absolute garbage MP growth.

Can someone help me figure out (approximately) what her stats would look like with different ratios of level-ups in those job classes? Like, what�s the minimum number of levels she�d need in Mime to offset the loss in MA from de-leveling? And from there, what�s the minimum number of levels she�d need in Summoner to offset the Mime�s garbage MP growth? And does it matter if she levels up Mime, then Summoner, then Ninja? Or would it be better to switch the order around to some other permutation of those jobs?

Posted by: DragonKnight Zero 7th February 2019 08:14

Found a resource that is relevant to your question:

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1842.0

Without crunching numbers myself, I'm leaning more towards starting with up Ninja/down Dancer first since that will result in a net gain for everything but MA. Mime next because it's required for MA growth. Down Dancer/up Summoner is best for MP though you will lose PA. HP and PA are easier stats to boost so it's something to take into account. Maybe could get away with one cycle of Summoner for every two of Ninja and Mime but that's just my estimate. Because the biggest gains are at low levels, best to do this at the lowest levels you can stand.

Posted by: Eagle Caller 30th April 2020 01:17

I'll spend my 199th post on this topic. I've had the time to totally complete this game. I've done all the jobs and relevant side quests. Though I do have questions for you.

Do you play in a modified version? The game is easy enough after you've played it to beat with only one class. I've also beat the game without a secondary ability. Not all classes can do that I think. The story has set the enemies at specific levels. I'm sure we can program them to level up with you like the random encounters.

Though if you do end up with a buffed stat-based character, what enemy are you going to fight that's a challenge at that point?

An idea is to level up on Mandalia Plains only. Get all the jobs and classes for Ramza there then going through the game as fast as possible. I believe that tests more skills than buffing stats at your leisure but whatever sizzles your staff.

You probably know of this. https://www.speedrun.com/fft

Posted by: Kane 30th April 2020 01:31

I'm playing an unmodified version of WotL at this point, and, yeah, as you pointed out, it's a matter of taste.

Speaking of matters of taste, speed runs: that's one of those things that just doesn't interest me. They're impressive in their own right, but even though this is one of the few games I'd have a chance at competing in, I'm far more interested in breaking the game as a form of mastery. (I left off with trying to challenge myself in FFT, my favorite game, during the last millennium.)

Posted by: Kane 17th June 2021 18:49

(For anyone curious, I leveled down 99-1 as a Dancer, leveled up 1-25 as a fully-maxed out Onion Knight (which, of course, required a crap-ton of breeding, poaching, and patience), 25-78 as a Ninja, and 78-99 as a Summoner for the first round of stat-balancing. Then, I repeated the cycle. Then, I leveled down 99-34 as a Dancer and 34-1 as a Dark Knight, and leveled up 1-25 as per above.)

Posted by: Eagle Caller 4th August 2021 05:00

Can you link us to a battle where we'd see all of that in action? Who did you fight? How well did it all go? Was there an outcome?

As a gamer, even a DnD player, it's not too difficult to write any number and character name on a piece of paper or text message.

When the Judge tells you to roll the dice, what do we end up seeing? In games like FFT's and DnD the battle is won when someone dies or surrenders. Is that an option with any of your characters, Kane?

I'm not trying to single you out though a Chess game is determined when two equal forces meet. At the end of the game the forces are still equal or not.

Posted by: Kane 4th August 2021 06:54

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Can you link us to a battle where we'd see all of that in action? Who did you fight? How well did it all go? Was there an outcome?

I've got it on my PSP Vita, but I wouldn't know the first thing about recording it, let alone the painstaking process of performing the Level Down/Level Up Trick--and I doubt anyone would care to watch it in its entirety (each level down cycle takes 45 minutes or so, and since Onion Knights don't gain EXP, you have to use the Wild Boar's Beastmaster ability to brute force it, and farming them takes time, just walking back and forth from city to city on the world map, and then there's leveling back up, which goes more slowly as you go on (obviously; though it's made a fair bit faster by equipping the STEAL command for Steal EXP).

To make things simpler, I leveled down at Fovoham (weaker monsters + degenerator trap), with Agrias equipped with Teleport and Speed Save (so her speed can be raised to 50 relatively quickly with Stone rather than the lengthier Guts ability), moving her on to the degenerator trap, and then on later turns having her try to teleport to the opposite corner of the map (which is all but guaranteed to fail), leaving her to suffer the degeneration effect every turn. (Once she's at max speed, all but 1 of your other allies can be petrified, whilst the remaining one uses Arts of War to lower the speed and power of the 1 remaining enemy, which you've lured onto the sleeping gas trap.)

Quote

As a gamer, even a DnD player, it's not too difficult to write any number and character name on a piece of paper or text message.

When the Judge tells you to roll the dice, what do we end up seeing? In games like FFT's and DnD the battle is won when someone dies or surrenders. Is that an option with any of your characters, Kane?

I'm not trying to single you out though a Chess game is determined when two equal forces meet. At the end of the game the forces are still equal or not.

I'm not sure I follow the rest.

Posted by: Eagle Caller 5th August 2021 01:11

I'm found guilty of overthinking it.

Glad it worked out for you. Though if I had the time I'd create a really hard character to beat in FFT's since after you've mastered the game it isn't too hard. Though an idea like that can be saved for something new.