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I am a huge, huge fan of platform games. They were the first games I played, or can remember playing as a child and I still play them incessantly to this day. I'm always looking for new takes on the genre and I've decided to do a list of some games. Top 10 or whatever it comes out to be.

Anyway, I'd like to start off with saying a few things. I consider certain games that aren't classified as platformers to be platformers. For example, a game such as Tomb Raider is usually classified as Action/Adventure or Shooter, yet I believe that the PS1 entries in the series, specifically Tomb Raider 1 and Tomb Raider 2, to be Platform games at heart. I will elaborate more on that later.

Second, I've also played some of the newer, indie games and while most of them get raving reviews, I haven't been all that impressed. For example, Braid comes to mind. Braid has an interesting concept, and a great twist on the traditional "save the damsel in distress" story (as well as an even deeper allegory for nuclear war), yet I found the game to be incredibly boring to play. The art direction was beautiful, but I just could not get into the gameplay.

So where to start?

How about an honorable mention.

A Boy and His Blob (NES): This is a game I have always remembered form my youth. I haven't yet gotten to play the update, but I have heard nothing but positive things about it. Yet can the original game be considered a platformer? You run, but you don't jump and the only thing you can do is feed jellybeans to an alien blob. Yet those jellybeans provide different and innovative elements to the gameplay that makes the game a true platformer, IMO. The blob turns into a trampoline, a hole, a ladder, a jetpack and various other tools to navigate the environment. It remains one of the most unique games ever created (it was created by the man who made Pitfall!). This game is not without it's flaws, though. It is broken to a point that you can finish the game in about 10 minutes, there is too much trial and error and there are a ton of cheap deaths.

Acknowledged as great yet I have no interest in:

Castlevania (Series): I have never really gotten into any one of the games in particular. I guess I'm just not into the whole vampire thing. Yet I have played several of the games and I know the series is held in high esteem. Has some Action/Exploration elements but are platform games at heart. Maybe it is a series I will get into someday as I get older.

Metroid (NES/SNES/GBA): What can be said? Super Metroid is highly regarded as the best SNES game of all time and the original Metroid is regarded to be amoung the top NES games of all time. I've also tried briefly the GBA games as well as Metroid Prime. Yet I have never been able to get into these games. And I have no idea why. Groundbreaking in that it is revealed to the player at the first game's conclusion, that you were actually playing as a Female the entire time (allowing perhaps, a game such as Tomb Raider to happen in the future) as well as it's deep gameplay yet I cannot seem to get into any of them, though admittedly have still never tried Super Metroid. Again, maybe I will get into these as I get older.

Overrated:

Jack and Daxter: I played the first one quite a bit and the sequels briefly but I honestly think they are forgettable, run of the mill platformers and even the gimmicks introduced in the sequels didn't really do it for me.

Super Mario Sunshine: This game is a piece of crap. Well, when you compare it to literally every other Mario game, it is and especially as a follow-up to Mario 64. Gimmicky to a fault (the water pack) and too bright and "Sunshine"-y, I think everything about this game, save the secret bonus levels with the scat versions of the original Mario level music, was forgettable. It was often too difficult for its own good in places, had no memorable music aside from the aforementioned acapella ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0tt7yuQTF4 ) and uninspired, forgettable levels. Probably the worst Mario game ever made.

Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped: Another game that was just way too gimmicky, I remember getting 100% on it but not much else. Pretty graphics for the water stages, and a second playable character but I honestly cannot remember a thing about the game other than the plane and water-ski levels.


Now, my personal favorites.

Tomb Raider 1, 2 and Tomb Raider Anniversary: Platformers, you say? Absolutely. Some of the best running and jumping you can find on any console and from any series. The gunplay just adds to it. I'm kind of cheating here by including the sequel and the remake of the original, but Tomb Raider 1 and 2 were so close in spirit and gameplay I decided I had to include them together. The remake of the original game was just as good, adding just enough and not deviating from the original game too much. The level design and platforming sections in these games has not been duplicated in any of the sequels or any of the new games, and I quite enjoyed the newest Tomb Raider if I can be honest. But none have captured that feel of the first two games in the series, where you actually felt like you were, well, raiding tombs. Just enough action was added into the first 2 entries as well to break up the pace a little. The jump scares of the original game still get me to this day. Another series where the sequels were bogged down by too many gimmicky additions to the gameplay, uninspired level design and too much emphasis on Lara Croft's breasts.

Mega Man 2, Mega Man 3 and Mega Man 9: Again, I had to include multiple entries in a series because of how similar they are in spirit and gameplay. It's impossible to say which one in the best of the three, especially that old argument between MM2 and MM3, but I think Mega Man 9 was fantastic and perhaps was 8-bit Mega Man perfected. All three have some of the best 8-bit soundtracks of all time, great level and boss design and are difficult without being cheap or intolerable. Great boss designs and weapons for Mega Man to use and the introductions of the slide move and Rush in MM3 were welcomed without being gimmicky. MM2 will always be my personal favorite between 2 and 3 but I really enjoyed Mega Man 9 and it might actually be the best in the series.

Sonic the Hedgehog 2: Okay, enough with the multiple entries in a series. This game is so much better than all the other Sonic games that it remains the pinnacle of the series. Sonic 1 has some great music and level design but Sonic 2 improved upon it in every way. The only stage that has a weak soundtrack is Oil Ocean, but the Oil Ocean Zones are kind of a mess in general but the rest of the game is so damn polished that its easily overlooked. Top-notch level design, artwork and music, great sound effects, fun boss battles and a climactic, epic boss battle make Sonic 2 one of the best platformers of all time. I still regularly hum the songs in this game and can probably run through it in about an hour but the stages are so fun to navigate (except Oil Ocean; God that stage sucks) that I often find myself just exploring the environments. For a game that's main focus is speed, I regularly slow the pace down to appreciate the level design.

Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest: Wow. What an improvement over the first game. Somehow, removing the game's namesake character made the game more fun. Diddy gets a lady friend, Dixie Kong in this one and her hair-spinning-hoover is the best thing to happen to a platformer since Super Mario Bros. 2's hoovering Princess Toadstool (honestly, who didn't just fly through that game with her?). But this game is just fun. Though at some point, it gets hard. Incredibly, frustratingly hard. Especially if you're going for 100% (or, more than 100%). Some of the hardest, most frustrating platforming sections of all time are in this game, and good lord it will piss you off to no end but if you can beat these sections it is so damn satisfying and rewarding it almost makes the frustration worth it...Almost. Have I said how frustrating this game is? Finding all the DK coins is yet another challenge in this game. But everything about it is such an improvement on the first DKC, and its so much fresher than DCK3 (which is a great game in and of it's self). But DKC2 does it for me. Great graphics, music and challenging, yet fun (sometimes) level design. A must play for platform fanatics.

Super Mario Bros. 3: Incredible game. The power-ups! The boss battles! The different Worlds! The level design! As top-notch as a platform game gets. Some of the earlier levels are too short and the game is rather easy but this was a groundbreaking game at the time. Even on the NES, the graphics were great. The warp whistle, the hidden sections in some of the levels, the hidden mushroom houses, card games and coin ships. There was a lot going on in this game for it's time and still, it is one of the funnest games ever made. Needed more tanooki suit... But falls out of the top-3 because you only get the boot in 1 level. Yes, I am serious.


The top 3 platform games ever made (IMO):

3.) Super Mario 64: What can I say? What can anyone say? This game blew everyone away. Reinvented, revolutionized and then possibly ended the platforming genre all at once. Mario 64 is God-like. The level design and gameplay was so well done in this game that you could almost completely ignore its only main flaw...but good lord what a flaw it was. Super Mario 64 has one of the most broken cameras ever in a videogame. I mean, absolutely BROKEN. For a game that gets so much right, from presentation, to graphics, to gameplay, possibly top-3 level design in a game ever, great soundtrack...the broken camera is almost inexcusable. But the game is just so damn fun, if you can look past the camera. I do however, think this game is really starting to show it's age, although I still go back to this game every couple of years and one of my greatest accomplishments as a gamer is finally getting all 120 stars...on an emulator...with a keyboard. Yep. Try out some of the original hacks that have been popping up recently for a fresh take on the game. Some of them are better than Super Mario Sunshine.

2.) Little Big Planet: I need to be specific here. Little Big Planet 2 was a mess (I have yet to play LBP3). There was just too much going on. So much so that I think it really dis-serviced the series. Because Little Big Planet was and is one of the top-3 platformers of all time. The graphics are gorgeous. When I go back and play it, I find myself dying because I'm paying too much attention to the backgrounds sometimes. The gameplay is simple but brilliant. Run, jump, grab. And that's it. But fantastic level design, a wonderful soundtrack and a great learning curve make this game an instant classic. The idea to make a 2D game on a next gen console was a brilliant one. Well, 2.5D, as it is called. 3 levels to move forward and backward on as you move from left to right and a high attention to detail with a likable main character (sackboy!), and a truly funny supporting cast makes this possibly the most charming game ever. If you haven't played Little Big Planet, do it now. It is a riot, especially with 4 players simultaneously. But even the single player game offers a satisfying experience. No other game has overflowed me with so much nostalgia reminiscent of Super Mario Bros. 3 either before or since.

And last but not least....

I'm having trouble saying this...but I honestly think the following game is the best platforming game of all time. Yes, better than Super Mario 64 (which hasn't aged so well, honestly). And some people might think I'm out of my mind and rightfully so...but In my opinion, the best platforming game of all time is:

Crash Bandicoot 2: Cortex Strikes Back: Crash Bandicoot was always an odball platformer. You run away from the camera on a fixed path mostly, sometimes you get a side-scrolling level and occasionally you run towards the camera.

The first game was decent, and as I already mentioned, the third game was way too gimmicky. The last entry in the series was a mess and I don't like the CTR or Crash Bash games. But Crash Bandicoot 2 is the platformer perfected. The camera is a non-issue, which is almost impossible for a platformer, especially a 3D platformer. Even the 2D Sonic and Mario games have issues with enemies kind of catching you off-guard as the camera scrolls.

Crash Bandicoot 2 isn't without death after death...But none of it feels cheap. It always feels like a timing error on your part, as the gamer. The design of this game is a simple as it gets: 5 warp rooms or 'hubs' with 5 levels each and 5 'hidden' levels in a hidden warp room that are required to be found in order to complete previous levels to 100%. You can find a Crystal and a Gem in every level and in some levels, a second Gem.

You have a few new moves for Crash that aren't forced or gimmicky: A slide that allows you to jump further, a high jump, and a belly-flop. Crash has such simple design elements that it's infuriating and mind-boggling at the same time that newer platform games still try to do too much. Collect fruit and smash boxes. No power-ups. That's Crash. The game adds a new Nitro box in addition to TNT boxes, that is an instant death, but a usually hidden detonation box for them somewhere in the level. And each level has a 100% boxes smashed completion requirement for the Gems necessary to get the proper conclusion to the game. Unlike Mario 64, which can get a little repetitive (let's be honest, collecting 100 coins and 8 red coins in EVERY LEVEL is mundane after a while) but smashing all boxes and finding hidden paths in Crash 2's levels is challenging, fun and rewarding.

And that's just it. You have some of the most challenging yet fun platforming sections ever found in Crash 2. There are a few different variations on level design: a traditional Crash level, a jet-powered surfboard level, a run from the boulder level, a ride an animal level and some of the later levels have a jet-pack; very fun yet still challenging. But none of it feels too repetitive, forced or gimmicky. The game has one of the best learning curves of all time. The timing required to get all the boxes in specific levels, such as the boulder chases, is so specific that one miscalculation can mean death or having to play the level again completely. But again, the game is so damn fun that you often willingly run straight back into a level to try and complete it mistake free.

There is just so much that this game gets right. The humor, boss battles that aren't too difficult, just enough level variation and gameplay tweaks without being too gimmicky; great graphics, a great soundtrack and a challenging, yet not impossible or time-consuming climb to 100% (I'm looking at you, Donkey Kong Country).

I want to say more but I'm not sure what else to say about it. It is as flawless as a platform game gets. It is fun and challenging. It isn't too long of a game nor too short of a game. It isn't gimmicky. Its funny. It even has great voice acting. Just play it. It is a delight.


That is all for now. I'll jog my memory at some point and add more. What are some of your favorites? What platform games are overrated in your opinion?

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 13th August 2015 05:40

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Dynamic Threads (Youtube)

Dude, play Sonic CD, it's as good if not a little better than Sonic 2. I agree that Sonic 3/Knuckles isn't what it ought to be (never liked the elemental shields thing), but Sonic CD:

A) Has great music

Has two soundtracks that are selectable in the Steam version

C) Has like a million levels

D) Time Travel

E) Seriously the music is awesome.

F) Has a race with Metal Sonic

g) Has Metal Sonic. He's totally metal dude!

I mean, everyone's entitled to an opinion but I like Sonic CD a lot, an I've just finished playing through Sonic 2 and Sonic CD right in a row. They came out around the same time, too, so perhaps consider CD to be a "Companion Piece" to Sonic 2.

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X is blue.

Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 13th August 2015 05:32)

Acknowledged as great yet I have no interest in:

Castlevania (Series): I have never really gotten into any one of the games in particular. I guess I'm just not into the whole vampire thing. Yet I have played several of the games and I know the series is held in high esteem. Has some Action/Exploration elements but are platform games at heart. Maybe it is a series I will get into someday as I get older.

Metroid (NES/SNES/GBA): What can be said? Super Metroid is highly regarded as the best SNES game of all time and the original Metroid is regarded to be amoung the top NES games of all time. I've also tried briefly the GBA games as well as Metroid Prime. Yet I have never been able to get into these games. And I have no idea why. Groundbreaking in that it is revealed to the player at the first game's conclusion, that you were actually playing as a Female the entire time (allowing perhaps, a game such as Tomb Raider to happen in the future) as well as it's deep gameplay yet I cannot seem to get into any of them, though admittedly have still never tried Super Metroid. Again, maybe I will get into these as I get older.

Yet strangely enough, there are Castlevania games that used Metroid's free form exploration style. Those include Symphony of the Night and Aria of Sorrow, among others. They're affectionately called "Metroidvania" games.

This post has been edited by chevleclair on 13th August 2015 15:03

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Quote (Spooniest @ 13th August 2015 07:31)

Dude, play Sonic CD, it's as good if not a little better than Sonic 2. I agree that Sonic 3/Knuckles isn't what it ought to be (never liked the elemental shields thing)

Sonic 3 Complete. All Sonic complaints rendered invalid. http://www.tiddles.org/s3c/

I'm not much of a platforming guy. Super Mario World might actually be my favorite overall, and I think it holds up just fine (though I must note that I need to play more of the NSMB series and also SMB3DW).

But let's also throw Cave Story into the mix. It's the most frustrating platformer that I've ever liked enough to really play to completion, and to me that means it must be pretty spectacular.

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Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Rangers51 @ 13th August 2015 11:09)

Quote (Spooniest @ 13th August 2015 07:31)

Dude, play Sonic CD, it's as good if not a little better than Sonic 2. I agree that Sonic 3/Knuckles isn't what it ought to be (never liked the elemental shields thing)

Sonic 3 Complete. All Sonic complaints rendered invalid. http://www.tiddles.org/s3c/

I'm not much of a platforming guy. Super Mario World might actually be my favorite overall, and I think it holds up just fine (though I must note that I need to play more of the NSMB series and also SMB3DW).

But let's also throw Cave Story into the mix. It's the most frustrating platformer that I've ever liked enough to really play to completion, and to me that means it must be pretty spectacular.

I honestly hadnt played Sonic CD until Sonic Mega Collection+ came out. I had heard so much about it and was so stoked when I bought it. But I really didn't like it, at all. Except Sonic Boom theme song. I don't know what it was but I just couldn't get into it. I should try it again.

And Sonic 3 complete= fap fap fap fap fap

I'm downloading it right this second.

Also will try Cave Story.

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Dynamic Threads (Youtube)

Arright, I'll take the bait.

Not really a platformer

Castlevania series - since the modern Castlevania games are much, much more about hacking and slashing fields of enemies than navigating spaces via running and jumping, I think of them as character action games or even action RPGs more than platformers, really. The pre-Symphony of the Night Castlevania games probably are platformers, but they aren't at among the best. Best parts of those are the monster designs and the music.

Some really good platformers

Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden II (NES) really fun platformers with brutal difficulty at times, but a tremendous feeling of agility and speed. Both of those games absolutely hold up as quality runner-jumpers even today, until you get to zone 6 of Ninja Gaiden 1 and you feel like tearing your hair out.

Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends - two of the absolute best platformers of the past five years, I adored Origins and have been EXTREMELY tempted to buy Legends on multiple occasions. Just check out this music stage in Legends - holy cow. The two recent Rayman games were made for speedrunning, so they have specific paths of greatest efficiency in their level designs and are super-fun to watch videos for. They also have a colorful, expressive, slightly naughty tone that is super-fun. The older Rayman games look okay (Rayman 2: The Great Escape seems to be the most popular one) but I haven't played any of them at length.

Ratchet & Clank series - Over the years these got less and less about platforming and more and more about gunplay, but they're they best platformer-shooters ever, other than Mega Man. I have a lot of affection for the second and third R&C games (Going Commando and Up Your Arsenal), plus another that I'll mention later.

Klonoa and Klonoa 2 - beautiful use of 3D visuals in a 2D space, I think Klonoa 2 is one of the most underrated PS2 games. If you can find Klonoa 2 or the Wii remake of the first Klonoa at a good price, they're worth checking out.

Sly Cooper series - really cool blend of platforming and stealth. The first one has the most platforming, the third one has the least platforming, and Sly 2: Band of Thieves is the most balanced, and best, of the trilogy. Damn, the PS2 had a lot of great platformers.

DuckTales - Capcom had a hell of a run with Disney platformers on the NES, Genesis, and SNES, and DuckTales is the best one. Mechanically sound, fun settings, and easy to get into. The remake, DuckTales REmastered, is excellent, and the sequel DuckTales II (also on the NES) was also pretty good.

Mario series - there are a ton of great Mario platformers. Not exactly a surprise. My favorites are Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario World, New Super Mario Bros., and one more that I'll mention later. Mario 64 isn't one of my favorites, but the impact of seeing Mario in 3D for the first time is unforgettable, and it's a pretty good platformer even by modern standards.

Banjo Tooie - I don't like the first Banjo Kazooie much, but the second one did a lot of really smart things - inheriting almost every learned skill from the first game, better-designed zones to play in, better boss fights. Good thing you can play it on 360 or XBone now, so you don't have to use the N64's garbage controller.

Mega Man series - I adore Mega Man. There are some awesome Mega Man platformers (2, 3, 6, the first four X games, most of the MM Zero games) and some terrible ones (Star Force, X6, X7, ZX Advent), but to me it's one of the all-time great platformer series. The most underrated MM game is Mega Man V, the Game Boy exclusive game where Mega Man fights the ten Star Droids, named after the solar system's planets. Damn, that game's on the Virtual Console now? Let me go find my debit card....

Donkey Kong Country series - all five of them are excellent, including last year's Tropical Freeze, which is fun as hell and quite challenging. My only gripe is that playing DKCR on the Wii requires you to use a Wiimote to play, and to shake the Wiimote to roll. That's awful.

Shovel Knight - goddamn delightful. Must-play if you like the NES suite of Mega Man or Castlevania games. I listen to the soundtrack at the gym a lot. Like, a WHOLE lot.

...whew that was a lot. Now let me get a little negative.

Some not very good platformers

Sonic Adventure series - terrible controls, a glut of weird characters that nobody cares about, and it's TOO. DAMN. SLOW. Stick to the Genesis / Mega Drive games and the two Sonic Rush games. Those are pretty good.

Jak & Daxter series - The first Jak game is actually not that bad, but a little rote and collection-heavy. Very pretty-looking for an early PS2 game. The second and third ones are disastrous. They have some cool ideas, but Jak 2 is bogged down by a miserable overworld (inspired by GTA III, but not as richly detailed or fun to traverse) and Jak 3 doesn't know if it's a platformer, an action game, or a racing game. Not worth the story payoff (which is admittedly pretty cool). The only one I finished was the first one.

Super Mario Sunshine - janky controls, an unappealing setting (weird, since normally Mario games have really great worlds to check out), and miserable collection elements. Stay away.

Prinny series - I adore the Disgaea series, but its spin-off Prinny duology of PSP games is a mess. Controls too floaty, too much hacking and slashing, and punishing difficulty that I didn't like much at all. I was really disappointed; I wanted these to be good.

Spyro the Dragon series - this one hurts. I played the first two Spyro games quite a bit (never beat either of them), but the first one has some design issues and boring stages and the second one, while better than the first, is just mediocre compared to the best PS1/N64 platformers. The other Spyro games I've played are all hot garbage. I'm glad the character seems to have found success in the Skylanders series, but his video games were never very good.

Lasz's Five Favorite Platformers

5. Ratchet & Clank: A Crack in Time - pretty good selection of weapons, some awesome platforming segments, INTENSE firefights, space shooting segments that really click, and a set of time travel platforming puzzles that are some of my favorite mini-games in any game ever. It takes the best parts of every Ratchet game and brings them up another level, and has some really cool story segments to boot. ACiT is the final chapter of the six-and-a-half "main-series" Ratchet & Clank games before Insomniac started work on Fuse and Sunset Overdrive, and an absolute must-play for fans of the series.

4. Kirby Super Star - I didn't mention them above, but several Kirby titles are at least pretty good. Super Star is the best in the series: one story mode completely remixes the original Dream Land, then four more full story modes are available, each with their own gameplay twists. Add several additional mini-games, and some shmup segments because why the hell not. If they just had the Great Cave Offensive story mode it would probably be the best Kirby game. Instead, GCO is one of SIX. Kirby Super Star is one of the most underrated SNES games and a fantastic platformer.

3. Super Mario Bros. 3 - amazing variety for a Mario game, literally worlds better than the first two NES Marios. Tremendous variety between stages, rock-solid controls, awesome stage gimmicks, SMB3 is the gold standard of 2D platformers. Its gameplay and stage designs are very straightforward, but hold up to this day, even if the boss battles are a little weak. By far my favorite NES game (apologies to Mega Man 2 and Dragon Quest IV).

2. Ape Escape - maybe the most unexpected game on this list, Ape Escape is definitely the best platformer title on the PS1 and is my favorite non-RPG on the system. One of the very first games to require a DualShock controller, Ape Escape's key items each manipulated one or both sticks for each item, creating some really cool platforming segments. Plus, outwitting monkeys (some armed to the teeth) and catching them with a giant net is a great gimmick. Sadly, Ape Escape's sequels were all disappointments, but the original is an all-time great.

1. Mega Man X - How do you shake up the Mega Man formula? RPG elements. Adding more collectibles (white armor pieces!), more weapon variety (every weapon charges up!) and a few new platforming tricks (DASH JUMP!) was an incredible move. Sure, Mega Man X had new additions made with each game, and some of those were really great, but the original will always be my favorite. If it weren't for Chrono Trigger, MMX would be my favorite SNES game; it's definitely my favorite platformer and on my short list of favorite games of all time.

This post has been edited by laszlow on 16th August 2015 11:36

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Quote (laszlow @ 15th August 2015 17:42)

Arright, I'll take the bait. 

Not really a platformer

Castlevania series - since the modern Castlevania games are much, much more about hacking and slashing fields of enemies than navigating spaces via running and jumping, I think of them as character action games or even action RPGs more than platformers, really.  The pre-Symphony of the Night Castlevania games probably are platformers, but they aren't at among the best.  Best parts of those are the monster designs and the music. 

Some really good platformers

Ninja Gaiden and Ninja Gaiden II (NES) really fun platformers with brutal difficulty at times, but a tremendous feeling of agility and speed.  Both of those games absolutely hold up as quality runner-jumpers even today, until you get to zone 6 of Ninja Gaiden 1 and you feel like tearing your hair out. 

Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends - two of the absolute best platformers of the past five years, I adored Origins and have been EXTREMELY tempted to buy Legends on multiple occasions.  Just check out this music stage in Legends - holy cow.  The two recent Rayman games were made for speedrunning, so they have specific paths of greatest efficiency in their level designs and are super-fun to watch videos for.  They also have a colorful, expressive, slightly naughty tone that is super-fun.  The older Rayman games look okay (Rayman 2: The Great Escape seems to be the most popular one) but I haven't played any of them at length. 

Ratchet & Clank series - Over the years these got less and less about platforming and more and more about gunplay, but they're they best platformer-shooters ever, other than Mega Man.  I have a lot of affection for the second and third R&C games (Going Commando and Up Your Arsenal), plus another that I'll mention later. 

Klonoa and Klonoa 2 - beautiful use of 3D visuals in a 2D space, I think Klonoa 2 is one of the most underrated PS2 games.  If you can find Klonoa 2 or the Wii remake of the first Klonoa at a good price, they're worth checking out. 

Sly Cooper series - really cool blend of platforming and stealth.  The first one has the most platforming, the third one has the least platforming, and Sly 2: Band of Thieves is the most balanced, and best, of the trilogy.  Damn, the PS2 had a lot of great platformers. 

DuckTales - Capcom had a hell of a run with Disney platformers on the NES, Genesis, and SNES, and DuckTales is the best one.  Mechanically sound, fun settings, and easy to get into.  The remake, DuckTales REmastered, is excellent, and the sequel DuckTales II (also on the NES) was also pretty good. 

Mario series - there are a ton of great Mario platformers.  Not exactly a surprise.  My favorites are Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario World, New Super Mario Bros., and one more that I'll mention later.  Mario 64 isn't one of my favorites, but the impact of seeing Mario in 3D for the first time is unforgettable, and it's a pretty good platformer even by modern standards. 

Banjo Tooie - I don't like the first Banjo Kazooie much, but the second one did a lot of really smart things - inheriting almost every learned skill from the first game, better-designed zones to play in, better boss fights.  Good thing you can play it on 360 or XBone now, so you don't have to use the N64's garbage controller. 

Mega Man series - I adore Mega Man.  There are some awesome Mega Man platformers (2, 3, 6, the first four X games, most of the MM Zero games) and some terrible ones (Star Force, X6, X7, ZX Advent), but to me it's one of the all-time great platformer series.  The most underrated MM game is Mega Man V, the Game Boy exclusive game where Mega Man fights the ten Star Droids, named after the solar system's planets.  Damn, that game's on the Virtual Console now?  Let me go find my debit card....

Donkey Kong Country series - all five of them are excellent, including last year's Tropical Freeze, which is fun as hell and quite challenging.  My only gripe is that playing DKCR on the Wii requires you to use a Wiimote to play, and to shake the Wiimote to roll.  That's awful. 

Shovel Knight - goddamn delightful.  Must-play if you like the NES suite of Mega Man or Castlevania games.  I listen to the soundtrack at the gym a lot.  Like, a WHOLE lot. 

...whew that was a lot.  Now let me get a little negative. 

Some not very good platformers

Sonic Adventure series - terrible controls, a glut of weird characters that nobody cares about, and it's TOO. DAMN. SLOW.  Stick to the Genesis / Mega Drive games and the two Sonic Rush games.  Those are pretty good. 

Jak & Daxter series - The first Jak game is actually not that bad, but a little rote and collection-heavy.  Very pretty-looking for an early PS2 game.  The second and third ones are disastrous.  They have some cool ideas, but Jak 2 is bogged down by a miserable overworld (inspired by GTA III, but not as richly detailed or fun to traverse) and Jak 3 doesn't know if it's a platformer, an action game, or a racing game.  Not worth the story payoff (which is admittedly pretty cool).  The only one I finished was the first one. 

Super Mario Sunshine - janky controls, an unappealing setting (weird, since normally Mario games have really great worlds to check out), and miserable collection elements.  Stay away. 

Prinny series - I adore the Disgaea series, but its spin-off Prinny duology of PSP games is a mess.  Controls too floaty, too much hacking and slashing, and punishing difficulty that I didn't like much at all.  I was really disappointed; I wanted these to be good. 

Spyro the Dragon series - this one hurts.  I played the first two Spyro games quite a bit (never beat either of them), but the first one has some design issues and boring stages and the second one, while better than the first, is just mediocre compared to the best PS1/N64 platformers.  The other Spyro games I've played are all hot garbage.  I'm glad the character seems to have found success in the Skylanders series, but his video games were never very good. 

Lasz's Five Favorite Platformers

5.  Ratchet & Clank: A Crack in Time - pretty good selection of weapons, some awesome platforming segments, INTENSE firefights, space shooting segments that really click, and a set of time travel platforming puzzles that are some of my favorite mini-games in any game ever.  It takes the best parts of every Ratchet game and brings them up another level, and has some really cool story segments to boot.  ACiT is the final chapter of the six-and-a-half "main-series" Ratchet & Clank games before Insomniac started work on Fuse and Sunset Overdrive, and an absolute must-play for fans of the series. 

4.  Kirby Super Star - I didn't mention them above, but several Kirby titles are at least pretty good.  Super Star is the best in the series: one story mode completely remixes the original Dream Land, then four more full story modes are available, each with their own gameplay twists.  Add several additional mini-games, and some shmup segments because why the hell not.  If they just had the Great Cave Offensive story mode it would probably be the best Kirby game.  Instead, GCO is one of SIX.  Kirby Super Star is one of the most underrated SNES games and a fantastic platformer. 

3.  Super Mario Bros. 3 - amazing variety for a Mario game, literally worlds better than the first two NES Marios.  Tremendous variety between stages, rock-solid controls, awesome stage gimmicks, SMB3 is the gold standard of 2D platformers.  Its gameplay and stage designs are very straightforward, but hold up to this day, even if the boss battles are a little weak.  By far my favorite NES game (apologies to Mega Man 2 and Dragon Quest IV). 

2.  Ape Escape - maybe the most unexpected game on this list, Ape Escape is definitely the best platformer title on the PS1 and is my favorite non-RPG on the system.  One of the very first games to require a DualShock controller, Ape Escape's key items each manipulated one or both sticks for each item, creating some really cool platforming segments.  Plus, outwitting monkeys (some armed to the teeth) and catching them with a giant net is a great gimmick.  Sadly, Ape Escape's sequels were all disappointments, but the original is an all-time great. 

1.  Mega Man X - How do you shake up the Mega Man formula?  RPG elements.  Adding more collectibles (white armor pieces!), more weapon variety (every weapon charges up!) and a few new platforming tricks (DASH JUMP!) was an incredible move.  Sure, Mega Man X had new additions made with each game, and some of those were really great, but the original will always be my favorite.  If it weren't for Chrono Trigger, MMX would be my favorite SNES game; it's definitely my favorite platformer and on my short list of favorite games of all time.

Great post!

If I may...

Shovel Knight has been calling my name for a few months now...the more I hear about how great it is the more I need to get it...Just got a 3ds so it may happen.

Duck Tales, of course! But I figured I'd leave it to someone else to mention it. Haven't played the HD remaster yet.

Mega Man: I have never played the GB games so what you say about MMV has really peaked my interest, so I will have to check it out. I agree mostly with what you said, but I could not get into the Mega Man Zero games. I didn't like the concept or the games themselves. But have you played Mega Man X8? It was the best MMX game since MMX4 (Which is the best MMX game, IMO) and I spent a lot of time on it. It was a very, very well done done game.

I'd also like to mention that Mega Man 7 is excellent as well and kind of an odd ball in the series, as it is the only SNES regular series Mega Man game. Let's forget MM8 ever happened but have you heard of the fan games that have come out recently or the remakes of MM7 and MM8? Mega Man Unlimited is a fan game that just came out recently and it is entirely an original game that the creator made as a sequel to Mega Man 9 (which again, I think might be the best in the series) and was meant to act as a bridge between Mega Man 9 and Mega Man X. It is an 8-bit game, with original bosses and music. It is incredibly hard. But awesome.

http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man_Unlimited

http://megaphilx.com/?page_id=26 (download link)

And before I forget, some fans have re-made Mega Man 7 and Mega Man 8 into 8-bit games (you can find them on google easy) and while I loved MM7, they are both great when converted to 8-bit format, especially Mega Man 8.

And I'm glad we agree on Super Mario Sunshine. What a hot mess.

But I'm gonna have to disagree on Spyro. I never played the sequels too much, but the original Spyro the Dragon, IMO, is excellent. It is as close to Super Mario 64 as a platformer gets and amoung the best platformers on the PS1. I neglected mentioning it in my initial post with hopes that someone else would and while I can't comment on the sequels, again, I think the original game was top of the line.

Ape Escape. You know. I played the hell out of this game at some point when I got my first dual shock controller. Its the reason I got the dual shock, honestly. I remember a pretty bad camera and janky controls but the game was very fun and definitely under-rated. If not for the mess of a sequel we might have seen another couple of games in the series.

And finally, I admit, I am a bit surprised by Mega Man X being at the top of your list. As much as I love Mega Man X4 and think it is the best in the series, Mega Man X comes very, very close and I'm kind of being a homer by saying X4 is better anyway. I'm not sure which one I have played more, honestly. But I don't like any of the other MMX games besides X, X4 and X8, since they are kind of a mess and uninspired compared to those three, IMO (maybe not MMX2 but I could never get into it). Very bold opinion, but I like it.


This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 28th August 2015 22:24

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Dynamic Threads (Youtube)

Quote (laszlow @ 15th August 2015 18:42)

Donkey Kong Country series - all five of them are excellent, including last year's Tropical Freeze, which is fun as hell and quite challenging. My only gripe is that playing DKCR on the Wii requires you to use a Wiimote to play, and to shake the Wiimote to roll. That's awful.

There was an emulated version I found that allowed you to use only a classic controller. You could shake just by pushing a button.

Quote (Dynamic Threads)

Sonic the Hedgehog 2: Okay, enough with the multiple entries in a series. This game is so much better than all the other Sonic games that it remains the pinnacle of the series. Sonic 1 has some great music and level design but Sonic 2 improved upon it in every way. The only stage that has a weak soundtrack is Oil Ocean, but the Oil Ocean Zones are kind of a mess in general but the rest of the game is so damn polished that its easily overlooked. Top-notch level design, artwork and music, great sound effects, fun boss battles and a climactic, epic boss battle make Sonic 2 one of the best platformers of all time. I still regularly hum the songs in this game and can probably run through it in about an hour but the stages are so fun to navigate (except Oil Ocean; God that stage sucks) that I often find myself just exploring the environments. For a game that's main focus is speed, I regularly slow the pace down to appreciate the level design.

Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest: Wow. What an improvement over the first game. Somehow, removing the game's namesake character made the game more fun. Diddy gets a lady friend, Dixie Kong in this one and her hair-spinning-hoover is the best thing to happen to a platformer since Super Mario Bros. 2's hoovering Princess Toadstool (honestly, who didn't just fly through that game with her?). But this game is just fun. Though at some point, it gets hard. Incredibly, frustratingly hard. Especially if you're going for 100% (or, more than 100%). Some of the hardest, most frustrating platforming sections of all time are in this game, and good lord it will piss you off to no end but if you can beat these sections it is so damn satisfying and rewarding it almost makes the frustration worth it...Almost. Have I said how frustrating this game is? Finding all the DK coins is yet another challenge in this game. But everything about it is such an improvement on the first DKC, and its so much fresher than DCK3 (which is a great game in and of it's self). But DKC2 does it for me. Great graphics, music and challenging, yet fun (sometimes) level design. A must play for platform fanatics.

Super Mario Bros. 3: Incredible game. The power-ups! The boss battles! The different Worlds! The level design! As top-notch as a platform game gets. Some of the earlier levels are too short and the game is rather easy but this was a groundbreaking game at the time. Even on the NES, the graphics were great. The warp whistle, the hidden sections in some of the levels, the hidden mushroom houses, card games and coin ships. There was a lot going on in this game for it's time and still, it is one of the funnest games ever made. Needed more tanooki suit... But falls out of the top-3 because you only get the boot in 1 level. Yes, I am serious.

For these three series, I think we're in agreement about each game we might pick as the best in each. But there are a few points I disagree with you on. First, I don't think Oil Ocean is a weak song at all. Sonic 2's soundtrack is perfect throughout, in my opinion. Second, and this I may be crazy about, but I never found DKC2 to be very hard. Maybe it's because I've played the game so many times that it is ingrained into my soul! There's one section that is an exception. In the last Lost World level, Animal Antics: Squawks, brambles, and alternating wind, is the worst thing ever. Third, I think that it's a bit unfair to drop SMB3 because of not having enough boots. It's like dropping The Godfather Part II if you didn't like one scene; the rest of it is still perfect.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 28th August 2015 17:21)

Great post!

If I may...

Shovel Knight has been calling my name for a few months now...the more I hear about how great it is the more I need to get it...Just got a 3ds so it may happen.

Duck Tales, of course! But I figured I'd leave it to someone else to mention it. Haven't played the HD remaster yet.

Mega Man: I have never played the GB games so what you say about MMV has really peaked my interest, so I will have to check it out. I agree mostly with what you said, but I could not get into the Mega Man Zero games. I didn't like the concept or the games themselves. But have you played Mega Man X8? It was the best MMX game since MMX4 (Which is the best MMX game, IMO) and I spent a lot of time on it. It was a very, very well done done game.

I'd also like to mention that Mega Man 7 is excellent as well and kind of an odd ball in the series, as it is the only SNES regular series Mega Man game. Let's forget MM8 ever happened but have you heard of the fan games that have come out recently or the remakes of MM7 and MM8? Mega Man Unlimited is a fan game that just came out recently and it is entirely an original game that the creator made as a sequel to Mega Man 9 (which again, I think might be the best in the series) and was meant to act as a bridge between Mega Man 9 and Mega Man X. It is an 8-bit game, with original bosses and music. It is incredibly hard. But awesome.

http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man_Unlimited

http://megaphilx.com/?page_id=26 (download link)

And before I forget, some fans have re-made Mega Man 7 and Mega Man 8 into 8-bit games (you can find them on google easy) and while I loved MM7, they are both great when converted to 8-bit format, especially Mega Man 8.

And I'm glad we agree on Super Mario Sunshine. What a hot mess.

But I'm gonna have to disagree on Spyro. I never played the sequels too much, but the original Spyro the Dragon, IMO, is excellent. It is as close to Super Mario 64 as a platformer gets and amoung the best platformers on the PS1. I neglected mentioning it in my initial post with hopes that someone else would and while I can't comment on the sequels, again, I think the original game was top of the line.

Ape Escape. You know. I played the hell out of this game at some point when I got my first dual shock controller. Its the reason I got the dual shock, honestly. I remember a pretty bad camera and janky controls but the game was very fun and definitely under-rated. If not for the mess of a sequel we might have seen another couple of games in the series.

And finally, I admit, I am a bit surprised by Mega Man X being at the top of your list. As much as I love Mega Man X4 and think it is the best in the series, Mega Man X comes very, very close and I'm kind of being a homer by saying X4 is better anyway. I'm not sure which one I have played more, honestly. But I don't like any of the other MMX games besides X, X4 and X8, since they are kind of a mess and uninspired compared to those three, IMO (maybe not MMX2 but I could never get into it). Very bold opinion, but I like it.

I think that Mega Man 7 is one of the worse Mega Man games, hahaha. The controls are janky and the bosses and stages aren't too special, in my opinion. Definitely in the bottom 50% of Mega Man games.

Mega Man X8 is pretty decent. I think that X1 through X4 are excellent, X5 is okay, X6 and X7 are awful, and X8 is okay. X1 is one of my favorite games ever, but I won't say it's objectively better than the rest of the Mega Man games. I rate it very highly mostly because of the huge leap between the NES Mega Man games and MMX, and because I played that one so much.

And dude, I *loved* the PS1 Spyro games, especially Ripto's Rage, but they don't hold up. A few of the environments are miserable to navigate (...mostly thinking about the Tree Tops in Spyro 1) and the controls don't hold up to today's standards. I think that Ape Escape holds up much better than Spyro in terms of controls, collecting, and environments.



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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOTUVXrAOE8

This isn't a platform game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1VNQRQ6wfc

Probably a platformer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFFKAl2A898

Please define to me what a platformer is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myn_YNHHvaE

You've never played these games, so therefore they don't fit into the category?

Last I knew, this followed along the category of platformer. Oh, by the way, try playing them. I know the difficulty for the first and third one are a bit extreme, but they are definitely fun to play.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

I played all of the ones you linked, and have beaten every NES and SNES Castlevania other than the SNES Dracula X.

And because I think the games focus more on combat than running and jumping, it's an action game instead of a platformer. Why do I think Mega Man is a platformer and Castlevania isn't? Mostly because I'm a silly hypocrite. Especially since the later Castlevania games much more easily fit the action-RPG label than the platformer label. Also, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills:

Quote (laszlow)

The pre-Symphony of the Night Castlevania games probably are platformers, but they aren't at among the best. 

I don't view Castlevania as a series of platformers (again, heavily informed by the Castlevania games made from 1998 onwards), but admit that the old ones probably are. You're arguing against yourself about game categorization. I think that only some of them are platformers (including the ones you listed), and you think it's a series of platformers. Agree to disagree.

EDIT: and just so I'm not a negative nancy, here's a quickie list:

Lasz's five favorite platformers for the Game Boy

5. Super Mario Land II: The Six Golden Coins

One of the easiest Mario games (great candidate for a child's first Mario), but it looks INCREDIBLY smooth for a Game Boy game, with an overworld similar to SM World and some very unique, trippy stages for a Mario game. Also, because of the colorless nature of the Game Boy, Fire Mario wears a feather in his cap. That always amused me.

4. Kirby's Dream Land 2

Great stages, fun variety of powers and animal friends for variety, and a cool collection side quest to reach a "secret" final boss, which is above and beyond what a Game Boy game usually has for quest design. Definitely one of the better Kirby games.

3. Mega Man V

I talk about it earlier in this thread, but Mega Man V is the most underrated Mega Man game. Good weapon design, good boss design, pretty cool endgame. Play it on Virtual Console if you own a 3DS and like Mega Man. It's only three or four dollars.

2. Wario Land

Sort of like a Mario game, but with more item-hunting, more shoulder-tackling, and a storyline motivated by greed instead of altruism. One of the last great Game Boy games before Game Boy Color was Nintendo's new handheld of choice.

1. Donkey Kong (1994)

Secretly one of the best Mario games. 90 stages of puzzle-platforming with really cool gimmicks and ideas. Any fan of Game Boy games and platformers absolutely must play this.

This post has been edited by laszlow on 30th August 2015 21:04

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

I have this crazy idea. We'll order them in their respective eras.

1. Castlevania - (Wait, this might blow your mind) action platformers, akin to the Mega Man series and Shovel Knight.

2. Metroidvanias - More open ended and bent on exploration and finding hidden items over running and jumping over death pits. There's a platforming aspect, but I'd have to agree otherwise.

3. 3DVania (or as I call them: DMCVanias) These are akin to Devil May Cry or God of War. They're 3-D Beat 'Em ups with rpg elements. These definitely are not platformers.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

To lurch confusingly onto one of the other series' raised in this topic, I always find it interesting that dyed-in-the-wool Sonic fans tend to favour S3(&K) as the best in the series, but that this view doesn't extend beyond the series' own peculiar fandom. People who've played the games some but probably wouldn't class themselves as particular fans of the series tend to favour Sonic 2, and journalists and gaming historians tend to talk about Sonic 1 because Green Hill is the iconic Sonic level.

I have a mixed opinion of Sonic 2. Everything up to Casino Night is brilliant, and perhaps the purest expression of the sunny, happy, speedy adventuring that Sonic was popular for in the first place. But thereafter, the rot gradually sets in, with most levels having at least one thing wrong with them: Mystic Cave is still a good level, but Hill Top's uniformly slow pace and strangled cat soundtrack leaves nothing to redeem it, and Oil Ocean's cool visual design is let down by an unduly confusing level design that belongs in Sonic CD. And don't even get me started on Metropolis, which appears in the game design dictionary as one of the greatest examples of cheap, frustrating difficulty. (And we have an extra act of it too, just like Sonic 1's most frustrating zone!)

It's this unfair difficulty meme that continues throughout Wing Fortress and Death Egg, though to the designers' credit, it's implemented differently every time: where enemy and object placement are the implements of torture for Metropolis, Wing Fortress favours bottomless pits combined with confusing engine quirks, and Death Egg sees fit to pitch you against a double boss battle, which must be retried from the beginning should you so much as take a hit. Which wouldn't be so bad for a final boss - after all, Sonic 1 and Knuckles do the same - except for the horrible hitbox issues on the big eggy guy.

Sonic 3 (&K), by comparison, never once frustrated me in the same way - OK, there's the odd bit of unfair enemy and object placement, and everybody hates the long, tiresome second act of Sandopolis, and clearly I've found a lot of things to fix and improve over the years, but by and large, it's a much more refined product.

What it maybe doesn't have is a level that seems iconically Sonic - it doesn't have that straight run of four unavoidably grin-inducing levels that Sonic 2 boasts, and probably, unless you've invested a lot of time into it, it comes across as less memorable for it. It seems a little unfair, since gameplay-wise, Hydrocity is probably a better level tnan almost anything else in the prior games, and proves that fun water levels are actually possible (without mostly ignoring the water aspect like Chemical Plant, or restricting it to the duff, boring route like Aquatic Ruin). It's just a much better overall product in my opinion. It's a proper meal, where Sonic 2 feels like cream cakes at the beginning and being force fed raw coffee beans by the end.

I'll briefly nod to Sonic 1, which is much more of a balanced prototype for Sonic 3 than anything in Sonic 2, but is ultimately just not as good, and Sonic CD, which is... different, and I guess you have to try being different at some point in your life. Some of the soundtrack is good, and it has some amazing visual design, and It's probably good if you want to set some world records nobody else cares about or something.

That's longer than I intended, and nobody here cares about Sonic, but there you go, I done a post! What do I win?

Quote (Tiddles @ 31st August 2015 05:59)

That's longer than I intended, and nobody here cares about Sonic, but there you go, I done a post!  What do I win?

I would say a kewpie doll, but I'm fresh out, so how about a nod of assent instead?

I'm not a fan of Sonic in particular, if only because I barely played the first and owned the 2nd and S&K, but of those two, Sonic 2 was more fun for me. Maybe it had something to do with being able to play multiplayer with my kid sister. I can't really put a concrete reason on it beyond nostalgia.

As for other platformers I enjoyed, my list is pretty short.

Super Mario Allstars + Super Mario World This combined some of the best games of the 80's with a fresh set of challenges that most people hadn't seen in the Lost Levels, as well as adding on the definitive platformer of a generation in Super Mario World. I'm also an old man, and these are some of the first games I ever played, let alone completed. I'm not going to get into my Commodore 64 days (Pitfall was fun though).

Spyro The Dragon I included this for one reason and one reason only - the flight. I didn't have access to Nights: Into Dreams, so Spyro was one of the first games I played with a flight mechanic (the other being Aladdin with it's limited magic carpet sequences). It was a fun game, thinking back, and I logged quite a few hours into it. This was before the RPG's of the day stole my attention for good, however.

Lost Vikings I loved this game, still do. I dunno if it was the quirky character design, the puzzles or the fun combat, but this game almost always stole a few hours of my Saturday afternoons as a kid. Not technically a platform game, I know, but I had to include it in my top three because of the sheer number of hours I spent playing this.

Honorable Mention:

SWAT Kats: The Radical Squadron
Megaman X
Kirby Superstar
The Lion King
Tazmania (Genesis version)

That's all I got, feel free to tear my opinions up if you like.

This post has been edited by Nytecrawla on 31st August 2015 18:30

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This is a webcomic and gaming blog where I rant about nonsense. Enjoy.

I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

I have a few from my childhood. These are, in my opinion, underrated and now very obscure.

Hudson's Adventure Island (NES) - Not exactly the type of game that pushes itself to the forefront when remembering games of any type. There's at least one sequel out there, and it's definitely quite a challenge.

Pitfall!(Atari 2600) This might barely fit into this category if at all. It's the progenitor to a series of not so good sequels for the NES and PSX, but the first one is surprisingly fun to play.

Bionic commando(NES) One of those action platformers. While this does appear to be a side scrolling shooter, there is a ton of platforming involved. You also don't jump, but instead fire this bionic grappling hook and swing across gaps and death pits.

Ninja Gaiden I-III (NES) These games are spoken of with dread, alongside Battletoads and the original Megaman as some of the more difficult titles in this particular genre.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

re: definition of platformer

There's the format definition and the gameplay focus definition. Basically all the 2D sidescrolling games, and probably some of the 3D games, are platformers under the definition of "platformer" as a presentation format. However, lasz is using a gameplay focus definition, and he feels that the gameplay focus was no longer on platforming skill for some games.

For what it's worth, I use the format definition, and as a result disagree with lasz's categorizations.



re Adventure Island

I remember being frustrated at how I had no life bar and also had a rapidly draining time bar. I returned to it later and found it a lot more fun.

The music is great at any age though.

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current games (2024-02-19):
Fairy Fencer F ADF
Pokémon Perfect Crystal

finished so far this year:
Gato Roboto
drowning, drowning
New Super Mario Bros.
TMNT 3: Radical Rescue

tabled: Lost Ruins

Quote (Tiddles @ 31st August 2015 04:59)

To lurch confusingly onto one of the other series' raised in this topic, I always find it interesting that dyed-in-the-wool Sonic fans tend to favour S3(&K) as the best in the series, but that this view doesn't extend beyond the series' own peculiar fandom.  People who've played the games some but probably wouldn't class themselves as particular fans of the series tend to favour Sonic 2, and journalists and gaming historians tend to talk about Sonic 1 because Green Hill is the iconic Sonic level.

I have a mixed opinion of Sonic 2.  Everything up to Casino Night is brilliant, and perhaps the purest expression of the sunny, happy, speedy adventuring that Sonic was popular for in the first place.  But thereafter, the rot gradually sets in, with most levels having at least one thing wrong with them: Mystic Cave is still a good level, but Hill Top's uniformly slow pace and strangled cat soundtrack leaves nothing to redeem it, and Oil Ocean's cool visual design is let down by an unduly confusing level design that belongs in Sonic CD.  And don't even get me started on Metropolis, which appears in the game design dictionary as one of the greatest examples of cheap, frustrating difficulty.  (And we have an extra act of it too, just like Sonic 1's most frustrating zone!)

It's this unfair difficulty meme that continues throughout Wing Fortress and Death Egg, though to the designers' credit, it's implemented differently every time: where enemy and object placement are the implements of torture for Metropolis, Wing Fortress favours bottomless pits combined with confusing engine quirks, and Death Egg sees fit to pitch you against a double boss battle, which must be retried from the beginning should you so much as take a hit.  Which wouldn't be so bad for a final boss - after all, Sonic 1 and Knuckles do the same - except for the horrible hitbox issues on the big eggy guy.

Sonic 3 (&K), by comparison, never once frustrated me in the same way - OK, there's the odd bit of unfair enemy and object placement, and everybody hates the long, tiresome second act of Sandopolis, and clearly I've found a lot of things to fix and improve over the years, but by and large, it's a much more refined product.

What it maybe doesn't have is a level that seems iconically Sonic - it doesn't have that straight run of four unavoidably grin-inducing levels that Sonic 2 boasts, and probably, unless you've invested a lot of time into it, it comes across as less memorable for it.  It seems a little unfair, since gameplay-wise, Hydrocity is probably a better level tnan almost anything else in the prior games, and proves that fun water levels are actually possible (without mostly ignoring the water aspect like Chemical Plant, or restricting it to the duff, boring route like Aquatic Ruin).  It's just a much better overall product in my opinion.  It's a proper meal, where Sonic 2 feels like cream cakes at the beginning and being force fed raw coffee beans by the end.

I'll briefly nod to Sonic 1, which is much more of a balanced prototype for Sonic 3 than anything in Sonic 2, but is ultimately just not as good, and Sonic CD, which is... different, and I guess you have to try being different at some point in your life.  Some of the soundtrack is good, and it has some amazing visual design, and It's probably good if you want to set some world records nobody else cares about or something.

That's longer than I intended, and nobody here cares about Sonic, but there you go, I done a post!  What do I win?

I'm pretty gay for Sonic the Hedgehog. And I appreciate your alternate opinions. I care about Sonic.

Sonic 2 is by far the best in the series, IMO. And I think Sonic CD is trash, to be honest. If you're talking about cheap death, look no further than Sonic CD. And any sense of speed is ruined by random walls and time travel that doesn't make sense.

But I can agree with some of what you say. Sonic 2 is a little too long, and Metropolis Zone has some of the cheapest hits ever, and it did not need a 3rd act at all. But Sky Chase Zone is fantastic as a lead up to Wing Fortress which is great, IMO as a climax to the game. And the final zone is a perfect mix of timing and difficulty. I actually like that if you die, there are no rings to save your ass on subsequent tries. The final bosses shouldn't be easy.

Also, Hill Top Zone is fantastic. Both the music and level design. Between Emerald Hill Zone and Mystic Cave zone there probably isn't a better run of levels in the entire genre. At least we agree that Oil Ocean is hot garbage. I cannot stress enough how much I hate that level in every single way.

But honestly, I hated Hydro City Zone in Sonic 3. It was obnoxious and boring. And Sonic 3 is pretty broken, which is why it isn't frustrating. The bubble power-up and the electric power-up make an already easy game way too easy. The only level I can remember the music from is Ice Cap Zone, and surprisingly, that's the best two levels in the game.

Sonic and Knuckles stand alone game is boring, IMO. Uninspired (and confusing) level design, forgettable music, and just not very fun. But adding Knuckles as a playable in Sonic 1-3 was a great feature.

And before I forget it, the original Sonic the Hedgehog is a top of the line game. Thinking back, the main fault in Sonic 1 was the three Act levels. It became a little rote. I think Sonic 2 gets the speed right, and has more polished Zone soundtracks therefore gets the edge, IMO.

As for the other Sonic games, I didn't like the DS games (Sonic Rush or something?), only played the GBA games briefly, thought Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were terribly flawed (especially those cameras, my god), haven't heard good things about ANY of the new games and didn't care for Generations.

But I honestly loved Sonic Heroes. The best 3d Sonic game and it isn't even close. Great level design, good soundtrack, an interesting gameplay gimmick that wasn't forced, frustrating or as lame as it first seemed and finally(!), a decent camera.

Quote (BlitzSage)

For these three series, I think we're in agreement about each game we might pick as the best in each. But there are a few points I disagree with you on. First, I don't think Oil Ocean is a weak song at all. Sonic 2's soundtrack is perfect throughout, in my opinion. Second, and this I may be crazy about, but I never found DKC2 to be very hard. Maybe it's because I've played the game so many times that it is ingrained into my soul! There's one section that is an exception. In the last Lost World level, Animal Antics: Squawks, brambles, and alternating wind, is the worst thing ever. Third, I think that it's a bit unfair to drop SMB3 because of not having enough boots. It's like dropping The Godfather Part II if you didn't like one scene; the rest of it is still perfect.

Hmm. I just think of all the levels in Sonic 2, Oil Ocean is completely out of place. You go from Emerald Hill, to Chemical Plant, to Aquatic Ruin, to Casino Night, to Hill Top, to Mystic Cave and then to...Oil...Ocean? Only to go to Metropolis, Sky Chase, Wing Fortress and Death Egg. The music, which is trying to sound Middle-Eastern, it seems, in order to fit the theme of the stage, is also out of place with the rest of the game's soundtrack, IMO. And talk about cheap hit/death, as well as a level design that constantly interrupts your speed, look no further than Oil Ocean. Even when I was a child, I always thought Oil Ocean was a hiccup in an almost perfect platform game. Even now, I will play through the game until Oil Ocean and go "Bleh" and stop when I get there.

DKC2 has several difficult levels. Some of the Lost World levels, a mine cart level, those upward barrel blast levels and that one level with the spider where you have to climb a huge pit with his web come to mind. But Animal Antics takes the cake. All those thorn levels were pretty difficult. I haven't played it in a long time though so maybe now that I'm going back to it, it won't be so hard.

And Mario 3 is near-perfect. But the boot should have been in more than that one level, World 6's map music was migraine-inducing after 15 seconds and the music box and anchor power-ups were lame and useless. There should have been more Tanooki and Hammer Bros suits in their place. I also wanted to punch Princess Toadstool in the face at the end for what she said, the dumb bitch. Go get kidnapped again and see who comes save you then, you stupid ho-bag.

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Dynamic Threads (Youtube)

I love Oil Ocean's art style though, and I think that it's thematically important to punctuate Robotnik's environmental destruction.

And yes, those thorn levels. Those are usually the first levels I die on if I'm playing cautiously. But for me, none of them were as difficult as some of the ice levels and barrels in DKC1. The barrels in DKC2 were much easier, but you're right that there are a few levels where you're guaranteed to die at least once in. But comparatively, I think that the SMB series was more difficult for me. I've heard people criticize DKC for having floating jumps, but I liked having more control over my character. Every SMB game always made me feel unsure about every jump. That's fun in a way, but it's also more tense. I always thought that DKC had a great rhythm to it.

As for SMB3, I actually appreciate the minimalism of it. I liked the feeling of survival it created by making lives and power-ups scarce. I didn't grow up with SMB3 like I did SMW, and in terms of secrets and power-ups I prefer SMW. But being forced to strategically plan my use of the Tanooki suit makes it more important, I think. It made Bowser's army more threatening. Unless you're just a great player, your items and lives are probably going to be depleted by the time you hit World 8, which makes it feel like more of an accomplishment. They could have had the boot in more levels, and given us more Tanooki, but they did continually impress with new designs and concepts up until the very end.

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Praise Be To Helix!

The main thing SMB3 really, really needed was a save function. Luckily, all the rereleases have this handled, either with native saves in the case of All-Stars/Advance or janky savestates in the case of emulated rereleases like the Virtual Console. Going through it all properly without saving is a cool challenge and all, but it makes it really inaccessible to folks without a lot of contiguous time!

For me, Advance 4 is absolutely the definitive version of SMB3, with the All-Stars graphics but slightly more NES-ish sound than the SNES edition, which I felt suffered from the unduly tinny soundtrack conversion. You have to deal with stupid voices, of course, which is a bit of a downer, but in return, you get a couple of brilliant features: firstly, a beautiful world select on a finished save, and secondly, pretty much restricted to emulation these days, the e-Reader world, with a bunch of new levels and features. Many feel fairly authentic, while others mix in features like SMB2's vegetable throwing and SMW's cape feather. Other cards give you additional rewards, such as an option for Luigi to have his wobbly-legged super-jump. The additions are splendid, and it's a shame it's such a fiddle to get access to them now.

In the olden days, of course, it was common to argue over SMW or SMB3 was really the better of the two. I'd lean on the side of SMW, as I always have. It's a shame to have traded away the diverse collection of powerups, but you get a more solid package in return, with the exploration element of ghost houses and secret routes adding a lot. And Yoshi is cool. It's easy to forget now, since he seems so natural to use, but he's a big upgrade over Goomba's Shoe.

It's surprising not to year Yoshi's Island coming up yet. Or maybe it isn't - in the years after its release, it was often referred to as "the best single-player game on the SNES", but for some, unfathomable reason, it doesn't seem to be as well remembered now. I think its drawing-like graphics probably don't work as well away from a CRT, and lead to it being easily underestimated, as do its below-par sequels, especially Yoshi's Story. But it always was a real good time, and tagging it Super Mario World 2 was a huge mistake in my opinion, because it's nothing like it, and it deserves to stand on its own as something different.

I have a lot of time for the first two DKCs, but I don't feel either of them quite nailed it in the way they should have. The first had super atmosphere but just fell flat in too many places gameplay-wise, while the second did much, much better at keeping me interested throughout, but lost some of the ambient charm of the original. I couldn't really process DKC3 - I only played it a little in emulation years after the fact, but even hearing the concept of the last game's star having been kidnapped again, and its late appearance in the SNES's lifespan, made it seem like things were being stretched a little thin.

DKC2 and Yoshi's Island were released in a similar window over here, and legendary magazine Super Play ran a whole feature on what a nonsense it was that the former was outselling the latter, even collecting other magazines' review scores to see who was telling what to whom. The pseudo-3D graphics of the DKC series were obviously a huge selling point, although it's kind of funny that they suffer even more than Yoshi's Island from not appearing on a CRT, with miscoloured edge pixels becoming very obvious and distracting.

OK, back to my roots: it's interesting that Oil Ocean seems out of place, because Sonic 2 seems to have no intended level order or progression during development. It seems like a bunch of people made a bunch of levels, and then they tried to string them together in rough order of difficulty. Clearly there is some storytelling from Sky Chase onwards, but that's as far as it goes. Wing Fortress is clearly unfinished (conveyor belts that don't move you, for example) and as much as the idea of Sky Chase is cool, it just isn't that interesting to play - the best thing about it is the cutscene sequence of Wing Fortress flying by, and the series of story-related cutscening that introduces - but Sonic 3 & Knuckles does this every level, and does it much better.

Metropolis's third act, by the way, is apparently a mostly reused layout from a scrapped level, Cyber City, incorrectly translated as Genocide City in the betas. Nobody knows in much detail what it was supposed to look like, but it might've broken up that nightmare a bit. I can't remember if Metropolis 3 is more or less fair than the other two stupid acts though.

Sonic 1 did have a planned order that was changed for release. The original release still lists the level select that way: Green Hill, Labyrinth, Marble, Star Light, Spring Yard, Scrap Brain. While it doesn't make sense in terms of difficulty - hence the change - it does have a nice environmental progression from nature to technology.

S3&K, by comparison, had only once change to its plan, which was to move Flying Battery from its original position between Carnival Night and Icecap, because for the most part, they had a plan, and it was good, and they stuck to it. The Flying Battery change was presumably to make S&K a little less anorexic, and possibly to help get Sonic 3 out of the door.

I do agree that S&K on its own falls flat, though I would not say the same of Sonic 3. They are clearly better together, though, and it was clear that they were designed to be that way. Think of S&K as very expensive DLC, justified by the bonuses it gave you from locking onto other games.

If you feel like the elemental shields made things too easy, perhaps you'd like to try it with Sonic 2 controls - we have an option for that in S3C. (You can dump the S2 sprites in there too should you prefer those.) I don't really agree, although their projectile deflection is a little OP. I think if you gave me insta-shield in Metropolis, or a fire or lightning shield in places, I might hate it a lot less. There's a clear but unlabelled difficulty structure in S3&K: Tails is easy mode, and lets you explore with his flight powers; Sonic is in the middle, being able to beast on badniks and bosses with the right shield selection and usage, but it takes a little practice to get that right; and Knuckles has his amazing special power to dig onto routes that are invariably harder than he'd encounter if he could only jump a little better. Except Carnival Night 2, of course.

Speaking of Tails' flight, it's a real shame they didn't make more of the coop aspect. One thing we nicked from the mobile remasters in S3C was the ability to make Tails pick you up and fly you around using only the first controller, and this adds a lot of entertainment value in my opinion. It's probably my favourite addition, and I didn't even come up with it.

Well, I'm not really sure why I find Oil Ocean to be out of place. I've heard plenty of times now that Sonic CD was developed at or around the same time as Sonic 2, so maybe it was a level that would have fit in with Sonic CD better, both thematically and aesthetically. I admit, it has an interesting level design and theme, but to highlight Eggman's effect on the environment wasn't necessary, IMO, since Chemical Plant Zone did that well enough already and every level has little animals trapped in robot shells as enemies. And I'll forgive Metropolis Zone's lack of a sense of speed for having such a killer BGM, but Oil Ocean not only prevents you flying through the level, but also has an odd time signature BGM which I usually welcome but in this case it only adds to the monotony of the level. Either way, Oil Ocean is about the point where Sonic 2 hits a wall anyway, and Metropolis doesn't fix that flaw, either.

As for Mario 3, I'm not sure I agree that it is minimalist. Mushroom houses, several new power-ups, various level designs, tons of secrets, flying ships, Bowser's armada...there is a lot crammed into this game.

On the topic of Super Mario World 2, or Yoshi's Island, I thought the graphics were great and the overall design of the game was good but man I hated baby Mario crying every 5 seconds and the gameplay gimmick surrounding said baby Mario. I thought it was obnoxious. Not to mention the completely out of nowhere final battle, which introduced a new gameplay element in order to up-curve the difficulty. I think its an obscure game for those reasons and because it came so late in the SNES's life-cycle.

DKC3 was great. I liked the overworld, it has a great learning curve, some fun and challenging sidequests, specifically the banana bird's and some very difficult levels in the late game. I just think DCK2 slightly outshines the first and third games, and for some reason I usually like sequels a little better than originals anyway.

What I am surprised about though, is no one has mentioned Skullmonkeys as a great platform game. Very obscure and not many people have played it.



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Dynamic Threads (Youtube)

So I just bought a couple of games for my 3DS.

Gunman Clive 2, which is pretty good and Shovel Knight.

Oh. Em. Gee. Shovel Knight.

I have only played the first level and can't stop violently orgasming.

Already I know it will be a favorite all time of mine. And I think they just released a DLC, so I have more to look forward to.

#erection

#violentorgasm

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Dynamic Threads (Youtube)