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Tactics' Steep Learning Curve

Posted: 10th January 2013 12:40

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Death Penalty shared this on the CoN FB page earlier today: http://kotaku.com/5974665/man-final-fantas...-learning-curve (NSFW Language in Text). As I've tried to force him to play it for years, he's complained to me in chat for about the same amount of time that getting accustomed to the battle system is such a difficult task that he can't even get into the game. He's not the only person I've ever heard say that, either.

I remember when I first got the game (release day, thankyouverymuch) that I too had some issues with figuring things out. I even blew the battle in Gariland my first time trying it - but, for me, that's all it took. After that point, my fuzzy memory tells me that the only battles that really took effort to figure out are the ones that will immediately come to mind to any FFT player (say, Golgorand, Riovanes, etc.).

Maybe it's just that I've been playing the game for fifteen years now, but I just can't remember the difficulty of being a first-time player so high that it would be seemingly impossible, especially for someone who writes about and plays videogames for a living, as the Kotaku author does. Is it really that hard?

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 13th January 2013 15:42

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Posted: 12th January 2013 00:36

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I read the article you posted, and personally, I don't quite understand the argument that the curve is that steep, or at least it's not so steep that the game becomes unplayable without aid.

I first played Tactics in 7th or 8th grade, I believe, and I also had trouble at the Dorter battle, but I screwed around a bit, and figured out most of what the 'expert' was telling the guy playing the game the first time. I ended up beating Dorter on the 3rd try I believe. That said, I ended up getting stuck, without hope of ever winning, on that horrible Weigraf battle where he transforms, and I put the game down for many years.

Still, I didn't find the curve to be all that ridiculous, even at that age, so yeah, I sort of agree that somebody writing for Kotaku shouldn't be such a baby about this. If you've been playing video games for years, you should be better acquainted with the problem solving skills that come from dealing with difficult parts. It just seems natural for me, and it always has, to look into my options to find out what I can do better if I get to a part I can't handle. In Tactics, this included checking my menus to see what else I could do in terms of classes, abilities, etc. So far as not realizing I could buy equipment in cities, this was a problem I didn't share, since something like that seemed fairly intuitive to me.

It just seems to me that anybody who can't get through tactics due to it's difficulty simply lacks perseverance.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 12th January 2013 00:37

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Posted: 12th January 2013 11:33

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I feel that, as both the primary suspect of this thread and the one who first linked the article, I am a bit obliged to post biggrin.gif

Quote
It just seems to me that anybody who can't get through tactics due to it's difficulty simply lacks perseverance.

There's the thing. Do I lack perseverance? Perhaps. I won't deny it. I'm sure that, if I gave it enough time, I could teach myself how to play. But it isn't just about me; it's about these two inexcusable facts:

1) Any game that doesn't give you some idea of how to play it or how to make use of its own features is making a serious blunder. Could I teach myself FFT with time? Yes. Could I teach myself how to play jazz piano with time? Also yes. This "just keep looking and you'll eventually find something useful" advice - when it comes to elements essential to successful combat, mind you - doesn't justify the fact that the game is shooting itself in the foot by not just helping me out. I mean, if they could even just give me a hint! Make it a riddle even, if they hate helping players figure out how to play so much. Even that would be an improvement by leaps and bounds. Sure, I could spend the extra time to learn. Or, I could play another game and have fun.

2) Any game that requires you to spend more hours level grinding in your first twelve hours of playing than actually advancing is deeply flawed. Requiring grinding later in a game is just fine, once the player has had time to master the combat system and been given some reason to keep grinding - like a good plot, for example. But the purpose of the opening hours of a game is to hook the player, not say "keep persevering at that level grinding stuff, someday you'll be able to beat the first boss in the third map area you've unlocked." That's only going to send someone away. I have literally zero incentive to play any further, and, after losing to Dorter for the fifth time, I have plenty of reasons to not play any further.

I really believe everyone in chat when they say the game gets to be loads of fun; it's just that, if this is how rotten the first stages of FFT are, I can't imagine it being worth the all the work required of me. It's like being invited to a party, but not being given any directions and then being told that you're the one who has to bring all the food and beer. I tried really hard to like FFT, and to look for a reason to persevere, but the game tried harder to withhold it from me.

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Posted: 14th January 2013 11:37

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The only real issue I remember having when learning to play Final Fantasy Tactics was figuring out how to deploy more than one character. That, if I recall, was fixed by reading the booklet that came with the game. After that, Dorter 1 was challenging, but really it was just a matter of trial and error. It's no worse than Demon's/Dead Souls, in my opinion.

Currently, I'm procrastinating on attempting to surmount the challenge of FFT 1.3. If you think that Tactic's opening chapter is unforgiving for those who don't know what they're doing, let me just say that you haven't seen anything yet.
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Posted: 15th January 2013 06:14

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I got the PSP version of the game for Christmas some years ago now. I really didn't have much problem to learn, I just went through the pretty lengthy yet extensive tutorial (maybe the original didn't have one?) and then I picked up things as I went along.

Damn, now I feel like playing it again...
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Posted: 16th January 2013 04:41

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I don't recall the game being difficult to figure out and I first played it when it first came out. I thought there was a tutorial. Isn't there an actual tutorial character in the original PS version? He was the one telling the story. I feel like there is a tutorial option even if I'm wrong about that. But still, it wasn't that hard to figure out, I was probably 16 or 17 when it was first released. I mean strategy-wise it took a bit sometimes to figure out but basic game mechanics seemed simple enough.

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Posted: 16th January 2013 15:48

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Quote (Chewbekah @ 16th January 2013 00:41)
I don't recall the game being difficult to figure out and I first played it when it first came out. I thought there was a tutorial. Isn't there an actual tutorial character in the original PS version? He was the one telling the story. I feel like there is a tutorial option even if I'm wrong about that. But still, it wasn't that hard to figure out, I was probably 16 or 17 when it was first released. I mean strategy-wise it took a bit sometimes to figure out but basic game mechanics seemed simple enough.

There was. But it was so boring they even self-referenced it with the Mediator skill "Mimic Daravon", which put people to sleep.

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Posted: 19th February 2013 03:08

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When I first played the game it was hard as hell. It doesn't really have a tutorial system to hold your hand through the game. But if you can get past that and really play the game then you would see one of the greatest games ever made (IMO).

I'm sure if you never played that type of game before, or even RPGs before it could be very discouraging though.

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Posted: 19th February 2013 14:23

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Quote (Gigantuar @ 15th January 2013 01:14)
I got the PSP version of the game for Christmas some years ago now. I really didn't have much problem to learn, I just went through the pretty lengthy yet extensive tutorial (maybe the original didn't have one?) and then I picked up things as I went along.

Damn, now I feel like playing it again...

The original definitely had a tutorial. Building on what Suikojin said today, though, it probably would have been better if it were a more "hold your hand" tutorial - maybe not quite as hand-holding as Final Fantasy XIII's was, but something where the tutorial runs more in-battle than without the context of an actual fight. It could have been overlaid on the prologue battle, for instance.

That said, I always thought that the prologue battle kind of was a tutorial of sorts. It's not often that you have a battle that you pretty much can't lose because of how overpowered your Guest characters are, so you really can go into that fight and do impressively dumb stuff as you try to learn and you probably will still win that fight. That said, that tactic probably would leave you up a creek when you get to the first real Chapter One battle, but I suppose it's an option!

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Posted: 19th February 2013 14:40

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I don't think the problem is necessarily learning how to battle well, but how to set yourself up to battle well. The thing that most people need a tutorial for is an explanation of the job/ability system, adding characters to battles, and maybe even a quick explanation that more powerful and different types of weapons will appear as you progress in the story. The prologue battle is good for showing the process of a battle (though an explanation of CT and how to check it would be very helpful for newbies, especially once they unlock wizard/priest), but it doesn't do anything for letting you know how to get any of your characters to a point that's comparable to Agrias or Gafgarion.

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Posted: 19th February 2013 15:06

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To rephrase in a slightly more constructive way (didn't realize how snarky I came off in that earlier post!), I think it's the one-two punch of no tutorial and a difficult opening that really does it. If FFT was without tutorial but had an opening 7 hours (or whatever) with a difficulty progression closer to the norm, it would be fine - players would still have to figure things out on their own, but they'd actually have the opportunity - soft soil for small saplings, or what have you - to get the hang of it. If FFT was still quite challenging in its opening hours but had a more thorough explanation of tactics both inside and outside of battle, at least they could warrant the expectation that the player fight through some rather difficult contests. Personally, I prefer the first option, but either would really improve the game's playability.

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Posted: 21st March 2013 23:56

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I have a little difficulty recollecting how hard the game is in general, just from sinking thousands of hours in, but I definitely wouldn't call it newbie-friendly -- a dumpster-tier tutorial, simply throwing the player into battle with no real clue on the mechanics, and so on. [My heart goes out to those lacking the original manual!] I still remember horror stories about players who didn't know about generic units, so they'd trudge through Chapter 1 with just Ramza and the guests. FFTA was a little better about explaining some of the finer points if I recall, and I guess (?) the WotL version added a little spitshine on the explanations.

The article's convo about the first Dorter fight brings back memories -- it's usually the first real stumbling block, enough that some people even quit completely at it! I definitely remember getting an arrowy beatdown myself, thanks to that rooftop archer. Never felt any other fights in that chapter delivered the same gut punch of frustration like Dorter I, although Zeakden comes close. [Maybe Fovoham too, in some respects.]

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Posted: 7th April 2013 22:22

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Not as mean as final fantasy tactics advance, now there is a game that is annoying.The weapons and magic laws make it so hard to actually fight without being sent to prison.

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Posted: 10th July 2013 23:39
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Quote (Death Penalty @ 19th February 2013 08:06)
To rephrase in a slightly more constructive way (didn't realize how snarky I came off in that earlier post!), I think it's the one-two punch of no tutorial and a difficult opening that really does it. If FFT was without tutorial but had an opening 7 hours (or whatever) with a difficulty progression closer to the norm, it would be fine - players would still have to figure things out on their own, but they'd actually have the opportunity - soft soil for small saplings, or what have you - to get the hang of it. If FFT was still quite challenging in its opening hours but had a more thorough explanation of tactics both inside and outside of battle, at least they could warrant the expectation that the player fight through some rather difficult contests. Personally, I prefer the first option, but either would really improve the game's playability.

One unfortunate thing that I've noticed is that having certain Zodiac signs can make certain levels extremely difficult and since a lot of that is all up to random generation you can sometimes just be dealt a bad hand.


Honestly I never really felt the game was hard to pickup, just difficult until you've figured out the internal structure of how everything works then it becomes extremely easy. Granted I agree, I don't think it is an easy game to pickup.
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Posted: 19th November 2014 11:40

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To be frank

The original game isn't new. There's ample time to study it. If you go into it without learning somthing about it, it means you have experience and/or gambling.

You're always doing this yet you can make it as challenging as you want. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Eagle Caller on 19th November 2014 11:41

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