Meteo

Posted: 21st February 2017 05:55

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The ancient black magic that was sealed away...I believe it originates in FFIII (NES) doesn't it? Or did it appear earlier? Were there meteors in FF1 or 2?

...Anyway, I feel like the moment Meteo is first cast is a defining moment of the series as a whole. Tellah is attempting to take revenge on Golbez for his daughter's death, and for a game where drama really became a thing that video games were moderately competent at handling, this is a fairly dramatic moment. Tellah is a real activator in this scene, and he moves the plot forward in a very specific way that has a real bearing on the rest of the story (shaking the control Zemus has over Golbez).

Anyhow, I just want to ask you: what do you think about when you remember Tellah casting Meteo on Golbez?

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Posted: 21st February 2017 15:21

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I was too logical of a kid, so I was more interested in how he cast the spell when he didn't even have sufficient max MP to do so!

In reality, that has to have been a subtle addition to the "went too far over his own limits" aspect of his own death, which is a neat little faux-"easter egg" for those of us too obsessed with numbers and stats to feel human emotion.

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Posted: 21st February 2017 18:22

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I think Tellah's going over his MP limit to cast Meteo was, to me, a formative moment that made me very interested in the idea of using gameplay mechanics to deliver narrative.

MP. This is how much magical energy you can expend before you refresh yourself. Once you run out, you're shot. But somehow, Tellah, in desperation, defied this "law of nature". Not just to the point of summoning a new bar of MP to do it, since he did just use it all by casting the third-order elemental spells, but going beyond his actual limits, since he only has max 90 MP.

I always thought Meteo was this super-powerful spell and I like to keep imagining that it is. I was a bit let down that in the endgame you can do it and there's a damage cap and it's basically useless.

Also was rather curious about the fact that FuSoYa is capped at 190 MP. So, only one casting of Meteo at a time. Unlike Rydia though apparently.

Also I still prefer the spelling "Meteo". It gives it a more distinctive flavor than simply "Meteor". To me, in my personal lore, "Meteo" is the ultimate black magic spell. Not Ultima, not Meteor. Meteo. (Dimensional magic, in FF5.)

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 21st February 2017 18:23

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Posted: 21st February 2017 18:44

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 21st February 2017 12:22)
I think Tellah's going over his MP limit to cast Meteo was, to me, a formative moment that made me very interested in the idea of using gameplay mechanics to deliver narrative.

MP. This is how much magical energy you can expend before you refresh yourself. Once you run out, you're shot. But somehow, Tellah, in desperation, defied this "law of nature". Not just to the point of summoning a new bar of MP to do it, since he did just use it all by casting the third-order elemental spells, but going beyond his actual limits, since he only has max 90 MP.

I always thought Meteo was this super-powerful spell and I like to keep imagining that it is. I was a bit let down that in the endgame you can do it and there's a damage cap and it's basically useless.

Also was rather curious about the fact that FuSoYa is capped at 190 MP. So, only one casting of Meteo at a time. Unlike Rydia though apparently.

Also I still prefer the spelling "Meteo". It gives it a more distinctive flavor than simply "Meteor". To me, in my personal lore, "Meteo" is the ultimate black magic spell. Not Ultima, not Meteor. Meteo. (Dimensional magic, in FF5.)

This is a good post. I was still quite young when I played FF2us for the first time, as it came out over here when I was eleven. So I was a little bit confused as to how Tellah was able to break the rules of the world in this case, because I hadn't seen that before, as well as a little awestruck. It's a good piece of melodrama in a game that's known for it, certainly one of the reasons I still rate this game quite highly despite it being a bit hokey in retrospect.

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Posted: 21st February 2017 19:15

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I definitely appreciated the scene of Tellah's casting of Meteo. It was fairly interesting to see him learn it on Mt. Ordeals, and the ramifications of casting that spell on him, especially since he's one of the few in the game that stay dead upon "leaving" your party. It helped make Meteo a spell worth remembering and with a (sad) story attached. And like mentioned earlier, too bad Rydia later learns it out of thin air, casts it like it's nothing and it's just some random spell in her arsenal with the rest.

I hope this isn't too much of a departure of the thread, but I also appreciated that some of Tellah's stats (I think it was Strength, Speed, Stamina) went down as he leveled. Another effective use of game mechanics to assist in storytelling, at least in Tellah's regard.

This post has been edited by TheEvilEye on 21st February 2017 19:21
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Posted: 21st February 2017 19:51

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Quote (TheEvilEye @ 21st February 2017 14:15)
Too bad Rydia later learns it out of thin air, casts it like it's nothing and it's just some random spell in her arsenal with the rest.

FuSoYa and Rydia must charge Meteo for a very extended period of time before it goes off, isn't that the rules of the program? If you want to cast it once you get FuSoYa, you can, but the other 4 party members will all get almost 2 turns during the casting time.

Rydia may be slightly faster but Meteo has to be charged for a very long time before it goes off by comparison to Holy or Flare or any other spell, really. Cure 4 goes off very very quickly by comparison, which I as a FF4 player have always been thankful for ("Thanks Rosa" ever time Cure 4 goes off fighting Zeromus is a habit of mine).

But Meteo being cast by Tellah after he no longer has the MP to use it, and instantaneously as well...

I don't know how a DM would write up rules for such a situation in a tabletop game, but being the only PC permadeath in the game was what the FF4 team said, and it really is the first time that this concept was driven home to a player in that way...Tellah did not join the party yesterday (I'm thinking of FF2). Tellah came along at a time when Cecil (who is supposed to be 20, 21, something in that range) was stuck with let's say a 7 year old girl who didn't know much magic yet, and was only capable of summoning Chocobos. Tellah took care of the party in its infancy, after Cecil had been separated from Kain right after they agreed to desert.

Minh in FF2 has a similar arc, but he has no family, and is not old, and does not die bemoaning his failure as a person the way Tellah does. Tellah's death, while helpful to the party at the moment, is really not as useful for them as if Tellah had not gone off the handle that way. You fight Golbez soon after that, in fact, and with Rydia's help (Tellah's student through the Watery Pass), you actually whoop his ass pretty hard. If Tellah had kept calm, it might not have gone so badly.

Tellah dying and staying dead the way he does is something games were still not comfy with at the time; Link to the Past does not do that to you.

This post has been edited by Spooniest on 21st February 2017 19:53

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Posted: 22nd February 2017 09:19

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If I recall correctly, wasn't Golbez not even fighting back against Tellah when Tellah threw Meteo at him? It's not clear whether the game speeds up turns to get them over with.

Same goes with W-Meteo at the end of the game.

But yeah, Meteo as a part of normal gameplay DOES take forever to cast, and between casting time and damage cap it really isn't worth it, sadly.

Another piece of delivering narrative through gameplay mechanics, if I recall correctly: Tellah first throws three other spells at Golbez, and each of them does far, far less than 9999 damage, but then Meteo deals 9999. I might be confusing this with the Zemus battle, where this also happens, but it's just basically an indicator of how much more powerful Meteo is than anything else.

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Posted: 23rd February 2017 04:06

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 22nd February 2017 04:19)
Another piece of delivering narrative through gameplay mechanics, if I recall correctly: Tellah first throws three other spells at Golbez, and each of them does far, far less than 9999 damage, but then Meteo deals 9999. I might be confusing this with the Zemus battle, where this also happens, but it's just basically an indicator of how much more powerful Meteo is than anything else.

If I'm not mistaken, if you level Rydia to 60 and she learns Meteo (was it...70? Maybe it was), her Wisdom is already high enough to hit the damage cap at that level on most enemies. I guess it counts magic defense of some kind, because I seem to distinctly recall times when Meteo did not hit the damage cap, maybe it was against Zeromus, which would make a lot of sense. Can't be doing 400 damage with fire to the last boss, I guess...

Anyhoo, the thing is, I think Meteo obeys some sort of calculation of split damage...when you cast it on a group, the damage is evenly distributed across the group. FF6 calculates damage similarly, and FF5 I haaaaven't played as often as the other two, so I'm not sure, but I want to say it does too.

Multiple strike attacks split damage this way as well, I think, pretty evenly. FF7 has a bit more robust of an RNG...but Meteo, when concentrated on a target, will usually just hit the damage cap, yeah.

As for the speed at which the battle takes place, that is a sequence that is just each spell being given 0 charge time whatsoever, and Golbez does take no action, yeah. Probably just because he was curious how badly the old man would tickle him by himself.

Golbez can tell he's not exactly dealing with the Fabulian Monk, the Airship Engineer with the Quake Hammer, you know?

Then Tellah whips out the most ancient black magic of destruction imaginable at him. I woulda been pretty shined myself. I do not recall Golbez taking it well in any version or script. smile.gif

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Posted: 23rd February 2017 06:50

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There are other spells that you can choose whether to concentrate on one target or split over all targets, but Meteo isn't one of them.

Ben Siron's guide specifically says it deals 800xB power damage "to each target", a specific label that is only shared with Quake and the Summon and Ninja spells, though those are the only attack spells that only ever target all and never single.

For comparison, that guide says Nuke deals 400xB power damage. (B is the black magic power factor, calculated from the caster's stats.) And the third-order elemental spells deal 256xB, but you'll most likely be using those when things are 2x or sometimes even 4x weak to those elements, so you might often end up getting a 512xB or occasionally 1024xB power out of it. And those third-order elemental spells get split damage when you target all with them.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 23rd February 2017 06:52

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Posted: 24th February 2017 04:15

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This wowed the 10/11yr old me. The old man firing off this ultimate spell even though he couldn't possibly cast it, awed me. This act was against the game rules (not having enough MP). It made sense when his vitality (and life) was sacrificed.

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Posted: 24th February 2017 06:30

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 23rd February 2017 01:50)
There are other spells that you can choose whether to concentrate on one target or split over all targets, but Meteo isn't one of them.

Ben Siron's guide specifically says it deals 800xB power damage "to each target", a specific label that is only shared with Quake and the Summon and Ninja spells, though those are the only attack spells that only ever target all and never single.

For comparison, that guide says Nuke deals 400xB power damage. (B is the black magic power factor, calculated from the caster's stats.) And the third-order elemental spells deal 256xB, but you'll most likely be using those when things are 2x or sometimes even 4x weak to those elements, so you might often end up getting a 512xB or occasionally 1024xB power out of it. And those third-order elemental spells get split damage when you target all with them.

...Is a 'all targets' attack exempt from combining split damage when it is cast on a battlefield that contains only one enemy, or not?

Gosh that is kind of a good question that I've wondered about in my head for 20 years now. :/ Things that make you go hmmm.

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Posted: 24th February 2017 17:27

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Quote (Spooniest @ 24th February 2017 01:30)
...Is a 'all targets' attack exempt from combining split damage when it is cast on a battlefield that contains only one enemy, or not?

What do you mean by this?

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Posted: 25th February 2017 07:18

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Well, to put it another way, Meteo is always all targets. If there are two Imps, it hits them both automatically, you don't get to change that by pressing left or right, and you also may not target allies with it, I wonder why.

Anyway, what I'm saying though, is that, does it calculate split damage the same way a targettable spell does?

Like, will it still do more damage on a lone enemy, or not? Just because it can't be changed from multitarget doesn't mean it has to be used on more than one enemy. What if they're they only monster left on the field, or a boss that by default is alone?

This post has been edited by Spooniest on 25th February 2017 07:20

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Posted: 25th February 2017 07:24

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Not entirely clear on the question either. Innately multitarget magic (and most summons) flat out skip the split damage step of damage calculation. An imp will take the same amount of damage from, let's say Quake, whether it's by itself or with five of its buddies.

Trivia: Meteo is Holy elemental and Golbez in that cutscene is extra weak to Holy.

I happen to enjoy how the game makes use of the battle screens in its storytelling. Guess it's just a personal thing.
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Posted: 25th February 2017 16:43

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Quote (Spooniest)
Anyway, what I'm saying though, is that, does it calculate split damage the same way a targettable spell does?

Like, will it still do more damage on a lone enemy, or not? Just because it can't be changed from multitarget doesn't mean it has to be used on more than one enemy. What if they're they only monster left on the field, or a boss that by default is alone?

Even if you do split damage on a single target, that's still dividing by the number of targets, which is 1, and dividing by 1 means you end up with the same number.

Also, I am pretty darn sure it is as DragonKnight Zero put it:
Quote
Innately multitarget magic (and most summons) flat out skip the split damage step of damage calculation. An imp will take the same amount of damage from, let's say Quake, whether it's by itself or with five of its buddies.


Meanwhile...
Quote (DragonKnight Zero)
Trivia: Meteo is Holy elemental and Golbez in that cutscene is extra weak to Holy.

Wait, what?

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Posted: 25th February 2017 21:04

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 25th February 2017 08:43)


Meanwhile...
Quote (DragonKnight Zero)
Trivia: Meteo is Holy elemental and Golbez in that cutscene is extra weak to Holy.

Wait, what?

I didn't think Meteo was inherently holy elemental. If memory serves me correctly, a big thing was Golbez casting "W. Meteo" on Zemus (which IS holy elemental if the W. stands for white).

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Posted: 25th February 2017 23:22

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Quote (DragonKnight Zero @ 25th February 2017 02:24)
Innately multitarget magic (and most summons) flat out skip the split damage step of damage calculation.

Ok. Got it. That's what I was wondering.

...I wonder which of the characters...you know that's a different thread, that I think I'll start now...

This thread is about Meteo. I had seen the word Meteo in EGM (a SNES Dragonball Z game, super budoten or something), and wondered what it meant? Then I play FF4 the first time, and Tellah casts Meteo, and Golbez craps himself, and then I got the basic idea.

Meteo means it obliterates whatever, it's super powerful destructive force alone. Any form it is taking is simply some construct of reality that finite beings can comprehend, in this case flaming rocks entering the atmosphere at velocity and hitting a target, and then you know, like a bajillion more do it in unison with that first one.

I also just thought of a FFT thread I might start...gosh.

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Posted: 26th February 2017 06:35

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Quote (Kame @ 25th February 2017 16:04)
Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 25th February 2017 08:43)


Meanwhile...
Quote (DragonKnight Zero)
Trivia: Meteo is Holy elemental and Golbez in that cutscene is extra weak to Holy.

Wait, what?

I didn't think Meteo was inherently holy elemental. If memory serves me correctly, a big thing was Golbez casting "W. Meteo" on Zemus (which IS holy elemental if the W. stands for white).

Who is it that says "Do the Meteo now!"?

Well, in any case, we don't know what Golbez's spell list is.

But I've heard that the W just stands for "double", as is standard in Japanese.

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Posted: 26th February 2017 16:21

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 26th February 2017 06:35)
But I've heard that the W just stands for "double", as is standard in Japanese.

Indeed it does. It's actually translated as Twin Meteor in later releases.
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