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Top 3 Developed Characters in FF (Main Series)

Posted: 16th July 2015 22:45

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I thought I'd try something different. I'm making this top-3 to keep posts from becoming too winded but it is something I found interesting and worth a go. So here's my top-3 developed characters in the main Final Fantasy series, and why.

Please, people, if you decide to post, I ask you to put some thought into this and elaborate on your choices. Without spoiling too much of course!

3.) Vivi - Final Fantasy IX ; Perhaps it could be argued that there are a few more characters in the series developed better than Vivi, but I don't think any character's development stabs you in the heart quite like Vivi's. Without spoiling too much, Vivi's character arc is absolutely heart-breaking but also uplifting at the same time. Simply put, if Vivi's story doesn't touch you, I'm not sure you can call yourself human. An incredibly existential, and surprisingly human character development for Vivi was probably Final Fantasy IX's strongest feature and in my opinion, the most memorable thing about the game was Vivi. Vivi remains one of the best characters in the entire series, maybe even one of the best characters in the history of videogames.

2.) Cecil - Final Fantasy IV ; I had a hard time not placing Cecil in the top spot, to be honest and I'm sure it will raise some eyebrows (especially after I reveal who I placed there). But I put some thought into it and decided he is slightly behind that character for a few reasons. While Cecil always shows strong morals and a high ethic, his character is almost too conflicted. But no other character in the series does such a 180, literally, in their character arc. An orphan raised by a king is rather cliche in the fantasy/fiction genre and that is another reason for my ranking. However, I found myself incredibly fond of Cecil right from the beginning of Final Fantasy IV and through the entire game. He is a true "hero" if there ever was one and his personal conflict between his duty and his ethic is such a strongly developed part of Final Fantasy IV that even if the game weren't fantastic, which it is, it would elevate it to one of the top games in the series.

Honorable mention: Tidus - Final Fantasy X ; I know a lot of people might disagree with this but I don't understand the hate for Tidus. At first, he comes across as a stupid, whiny jock. And by all means, he is a stupid, whiny jock. But over the course of the game, I grew to like Tidus. His inner-monologue allows the gamer to really grasp him on a level that most games don't allow their main characters to be understood. Combined with flashbacks, showing his childhood trauma caused by an emotionally abusive father, these literary elements allow Tidus to be completely understood by the gamer. I found this to be a breath of fresh air in a genre where protagonists are often too mysterious. We know who Tidus is, right from the beginning but especially by the end of the game. The main flaw in the development of Tidus is how blatantly oedipal it is. Tidus has a serious oedipal complex that is never resolved (not to be confused with a lack of closure) but it is at least, fully fleshed out and makes for one of the more emotional aspects of the game and series. I didn't like Tidus at first if I can be honest but by the end of the game, I did. He wore his heart on his sleeve, was generally positive and light-hearted, which we can't say for most characters in the Final Fantasy series.

And now to put some panties in a twist. The best developed character in the Final Fantasy series.

1.) Squall - Final Fantasy VIII ; First and foremost, this might come across as favoritism. FF8 is one of my favorites in the series, if not my favorite. I love how it is the black sheep of the series. But after finishing a play-through of FF8 a few days ago, I had to place Squall at the top. Simply put, there is no better developed character in the Final Fantasy series. People may not like Squall, but Sqaure put a lot of time and effort into the character and I think the "angsty" label Squall gets is both unfair and wrong. People forget that Squall is a 17 year old in the game. People also forget what it was like to be a 17 year old. I was a miserable 17 year old!

I would also like to point out that Squall's character was developed so much that the developers of the game forgot to develop most of the other characters. Aside from Squall, only Seifer, Rinoa and Laguna were developed properly. But we also have to consider that the main characters are all between 17 and 19 years old. There isn't a whole lot of changes a young adult goes through at those ages. They have already experienced adolescence, and have yet to experience adulthood. So they are all at that awkward age when they are caught in-between who they were as a child and who they will become as an adult. So I can forgive the lack of development for the supporting cast.

But in Squall, we have a 17 year old young man who is being trained as a mercenary. He was an orphan. He experienced trauma as a child and displayed separation anxiety because of it. This made him keep to himself, a "loner". But Squall isn't thoughtless, in fact, it is the opposite. Squall is an incredibly thoughtful, intelligent, reasonable and realistic person. He is the "anti-hero" to Cecil's "hero". Squall expresses his beliefs in a very mature manner. He doesn't judge people but instead tries to see the logic behind their choices, he truly tries to understand them. He seems cold, but like most of us, he doesn't want to get hurt because he knows that nothing lasts forever. He doesn't allow people to get to know him because his sister, the person he grew up with and remembered most, was separated from him at a young age. And again, what 17 year old, male or female, is good at expressing themselves?

Over the course of the game, Squall is reunited with his childhood friends and family and falls in love. The orphanage twist isn't as far-fetched as people claim. We have a world torn apart by war at the heart of FF8 and THREE academies, which foster, educate, raise and train children as students and to become soldiers. We have two surviving empires, one eradicated empire and all cities and towns are either under their control, or in the case of two in particular, neutral and pacifist (FH and Shumi tribe). FF8 is a very empty and underpopulated world compared to other entries in the series.

But to close things up, Squall does become an adult before our eyes in FF8. He is your typical 17 year old at the game's onset but over the course of the game, learns to open up, express himself, he falls in love and surrounds himself with friends and family. There is really nothing angsty about Squall and he is such an enjoyable, relatable and lovable character that I really cannot believe the criticism of him by a lot of FF purists. Squall isn't a prototypical soldier nor is he a common archetype, nor is he a typical hero. He is a reluctant leader, humble and realistic.

That is all. smile.gif

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Posted: 17th July 2015 09:24

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I despise the petulant Tidus "it's MY story" character. I know why people seem to relate to him. By the end of the game, he still winds up as a whiny jock. The character who truly develops in X is Yuna. The naive, tittering little girl matures right in front of everyone! Tidus stomps and screams and cries about it being his story, but in reality- he doesn't even belong in that story at all. Is he the one who's going to be sacrificed? Is he the one who's confronted with the truth that his whole life is a lie? Is he the one who has to make the hard decisions that could cost the lives of millions of people?

The answer to all of that is....no. That all falls on Yuna. Tidus is an emotionally stunted jock with massive daddy issues.

Squall. On the bright side, when I read "Twilight" (don't knock it till you try it), Bella Swan made me think of Squall. OMG, Final Fantasy needs to drop the orphan act. Cecil was an orphan, Terra was an orphan, Vaan, Zidane, Aeris... maybe it's time for a change.

There are characters I like less than Squall, (like Tidus!), but I think it's just me being fatigued over the same trope over and over again.

Don't get me wrong, I think your arguments are very sound, but if you don't understand why folks hate them, there's the reason I dislike those characters.

Vivi wasn't so much well developed as he was probably the most compelling as the story progressed. He definitely won my sympathy over with his kind and awkward demeanor, and how he reacted toward his impending death.

What about Ramza Beoulve? The intrepid young noble who became more cynical as the game progressed, but never broke away from his core principles? his sense of honor and justice constantly shaken as he's manipulated into doing one thing after another?

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Posted: 17th July 2015 17:54

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Shadow-Good story good background very interesting, especially when he says some people kill their emotions.

Cecil:His redemption story is something I definitely think Is really good.

Kain:He is a man who lives with jealousy in his heart, because he loves his best friends woman, and secretly tried to murder his friend for her.To me, he is very underrated.

Kefka:Best villain in my opinion in the series, and one of the things that holds ff6 together so well.If it wasn't for him, ff6 wouldn't be the same

Special mention:Terra:Her humanity and story of being lost is great, and gives an excuse to hate Kefka even more.I would say she is probably the strongest character story wise.


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Posted: 18th July 2015 04:41

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Quote (chevleclair @ 17th July 2015 04:24)
I despise the petulant Tidus "it's MY story" character. I know why people seem to relate to him. By the end of the game, he still winds up as a whiny jock. The character who truly develops in X is Yuna. The naive, tittering little girl matures right in front of everyone! Tidus stomps and screams and cries about it being his story, but in reality- he doesn't even belong in that story at all. Is he the one who's going to be sacrificed? Is he the one who's confronted with the truth that his whole life is a lie? Is he the one who has to make the hard decisions that could cost the lives of millions of people?

The answer to all of that is....no. That all falls on Yuna. Tidus is an emotionally stunted jock with massive daddy issues.


Great, great response and I actually contemplated putting Tidus and Yuna together as an honorable mention but I thought that would be kind of "cheating" or doing them both a disservice. I do disagree, somewhat that Tidus didn't belong in the story. It isn't that Tidus didn't belong in the story, it's that he didn't belong in the world at all. If it weren't for him, Yuna would have died in vain and the cycle would have endlessly continued. I think without Tidus, Yuna's character wouldn't have developed and it is that reason that I placed him as an honorable mention. Tidus threw a wrench in the gear of the world of FFX. The religion and institution, the conservative mindset, the naive worldview...Tidus might not have changed too much from the start to the end, but the twist in his character's storyline, actually the two twists in it, were fantastic. He really was a whiny jock but we really understood why by the end of the game. And I shouldn't have, but I felt sorry for him as a victim of society and abuse. And Yuna was just as much a victim of her society and it's abuse. They mirror each other perfectly and their relationship is as strongly developed as any.

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Squall. On the bright side, when I read "Twilight" (don't knock it till you try it), Bella Swan made me think of Squall. OMG, Final Fantasy needs to drop the orphan act. Cecil was an orphan, Terra was an orphan, Vaan, Zidane, Aeris... maybe it's time for a change.

There are characters I like less than Squall, (like Tidus!), but I think it's just me being fatigued over the same trope over and over again.


I hear you on that one. It's just that Squall was developed so good that I can overlook the somewhat cliche of his upbringing. Plus, it is a huge theme in the world of FF8, that of being orphaned.

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Don't get me wrong, I think your arguments are very sound, but if you don't understand why folks hate them, there's the reason I dislike those characters.


I guess I can understand the hate for Tidus, as, again, he really was a whiny jock, haha. But Squall is such a likeable character, IMO, especially by the third act, that you really have to pick his character apart in order to not like him, which I think people do with him. You've provided insight as to why, and I have chosen to look the other way and accept the character for what he is. Just a teenager caught up in something bigger than him.

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Vivi wasn't so much well developed as he was probably the most compelling as the story progressed. He definitely won my sympathy over with his kind and awkward demeanor, and how he reacted toward his impending death.


Vivi was probably the only character who was developed at all in FFIX. Garnet was but only slightly. Everyone was just kind of 'there' and they were likeable characters for the most part, just not developed. But like I said, Vivi isn't one of the best developed, but my god what a heart-breaking character. I think his development wasn't so much deep as it was perfect in it's execution.

Quote
What about Ramza Beoulve? The intrepid young noble who became more cynical as the game progressed, but never broke away from his core principles? his sense of honor and justice constantly shaken as he's manipulated into doing one thing after another?


I would have put Ramza, but I did want to limit the selection to the main series so it wasn't so overwhelming. not that there are a whole lot of spin-offs, but the sequels (actual sequels) and FF themed games would have been too much to consider, but I'm not a dictator. I guess I don't care who people choose to consider, lol.

But I agree. Ramza was a great character and very well done.


Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 17th July 2015 12:54)
Shadow-Good story good background very interesting, especially when he says some people kill their emotions.

Cecil:His redemption story is something I definitely think Is really good.

Kain:He is a man who lives with jealousy in his heart, because he loves his best friends woman, and secretly tried to murder his friend for her.To me, he is very underrated.

Kefka:Best villain in my opinion in the series, and one of the things that holds ff6 together so well.If it wasn't for him, ff6 wouldn't be the same

Special mention:Terra:Her humanity and story of being lost is great, and gives an excuse to hate Kefka even more.I would say she is probably the strongest character story wise.


I'm glad we can agree on Cecil and I want to touch on the fact that you made Terra your HM.

I think in the case of Terra and FFVI in general, is that it was FFIV but done grander and "better". I say "better" because it was a phenomenal game but I couldn't help but get the feeling I had played it before...in FFIV. I pretty much view FFVI, however unfair it is, as a slight remake of FFIV. It just became more epic, melodramatic, expansive, etc... Which is why I have a hard time saying what the best game in the series is. I really want to say FFVI, but I also really want to say FFIV. and I don't like placing one above the other, especially placing FFVI above FFIV.

I like you including Kain in your top 3 and don't have an argument. He is a very dynamic character and a favorite of most fans. But Kefka wasn't so much developed as he was just pure insanity, I think. He's the Joker, essentially. A villain you love to love and secretly want to root for...or maybe that's just me >_>


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Posted: 18th July 2015 08:54

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Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 18th July 2015 04:41)
Quote (chevleclair @ 17th July 2015 04:24)
I despise the petulant Tidus "it's MY story" character. I know why people seem to relate to him. By the end of the game, he still winds up as a whiny jock. The character who truly develops in X is Yuna. The naive, tittering little girl matures right in front of everyone! Tidus stomps and screams and cries about it being his story, but in reality- he doesn't even belong in that story at all. Is he the one who's going to be sacrificed? Is he the one who's confronted with the truth that his whole life is a lie? Is he the one who has to make the hard decisions that could cost the lives of millions of people?

The answer to all of that is....no. That all falls on Yuna. Tidus is an emotionally stunted jock with massive daddy issues.


Great, great response and I actually contemplated putting Tidus and Yuna together as an honorable mention but I thought that would be kind of "cheating" or doing them both a disservice. I do disagree, somewhat that Tidus didn't belong in the story. It isn't that Tidus didn't belong in the story, it's that he didn't belong in the world at all. If it weren't for him, Yuna would have died in vain and the cycle would have endlessly continued. I think without Tidus, Yuna's character wouldn't have developed and it is that reason that I placed him as an honorable mention. Tidus threw a wrench in the gear of the world of FFX. The religion and institution, the conservative mindset, the naive worldview...Tidus might not have changed too much from the start to the end, but the twist in his character's storyline, actually the two twists in it, were fantastic. He really was a whiny jock but we really understood why by the end of the game. And I shouldn't have, but I felt sorry for him as a victim of society and abuse. And Yuna was just as much a victim of her society and it's abuse. They mirror each other perfectly and their relationship is as strongly developed as any.

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Squall. On the bright side, when I read "Twilight" (don't knock it till you try it), Bella Swan made me think of Squall. OMG, Final Fantasy needs to drop the orphan act. Cecil was an orphan, Terra was an orphan, Vaan, Zidane, Aeris... maybe it's time for a change.

There are characters I like less than Squall, (like Tidus!), but I think it's just me being fatigued over the same trope over and over again.


I hear you on that one. It's just that Squall was developed so good that I can overlook the somewhat cliche of his upbringing. Plus, it is a huge theme in the world of FF8, that of being orphaned.

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I think your arguments are very sound, but if you don't understand why folks hate them, there's the reason I dislike those characters.


I guess I can understand the hate for Tidus, as, again, he really was a whiny jock, haha. But Squall is such a likeable character, IMO, especially by the third act, that you really have to pick his character apart in order to not like him, which I think people do with him. You've provided insight as to why, and I have chosen to look the other way and accept the character for what he is. Just a teenager caught up in something bigger than him.

Quote
Vivi wasn't so much well developed as he was probably the most compelling as the story progressed. He definitely won my sympathy over with his kind and awkward demeanor, and how he reacted toward his impending death.


Vivi was probably the only character who was developed at all in FFIX. Garnet was but only slightly. Everyone was just kind of 'there' and they were likeable characters for the most part, just not developed. But like I said, Vivi isn't one of the best developed, but my god what a heart-breaking character. I think his development wasn't so much deep as it was perfect in it's execution.

Quote
What about Ramza Beoulve? The intrepid young noble who became more cynical as the game progressed, but never broke away from his core principles? his sense of honor and justice constantly shaken as he's manipulated into doing one thing after another?


I would have put Ramza, but I did want to limit the selection to the main series so it wasn't so overwhelming. not that there are a whole lot of spin-offs, but the sequels (actual sequels) and FF themed games would have been too much to consider, but I'm not a dictator. I guess I don't care who people choose to consider, lol.

But I agree. Ramza was a great character and very well done.


Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 17th July 2015 12:54)
Shadow-Good story good background very interesting, especially when he says some people kill their emotions.

Cecil:His redemption story is something I definitely think Is really good.

Kain:He is a man who lives with jealousy in his heart, because he loves his best friends woman, and secretly tried to murder his friend for her.To me, he is very underrated.

Kefka:Best villain in my opinion in the series, and one of the things that holds ff6 together so well.If it wasn't for him, ff6 wouldn't be the same

Special mention:Terra:Her humanity and story of being lost is great, and gives an excuse to hate Kefka even more.I would say she is probably the strongest character story wise.


I'm glad we can agree on Cecil and I want to touch on the fact that you made Terra your HM.

I think in the case of Terra and FFVI in general, is that it was FFIV but done grander and "better". I say "better" because it was a phenomenal game but I couldn't help but get the feeling I had played it before...in FFIV. I pretty much view FFVI, however unfair it is, as a slight remake of FFIV. It just became more epic, melodramatic, expansive, etc... Which is why I have a hard time saying what the best game in the series is. I really want to say FFVI, but I also really want to say FFIV. and I don't like placing one above the other, especially placing FFVI above FFIV.

I like you including Kain in your top 3 and don't have an argument. He is a very dynamic character and a favorite of most fans. But Kefka wasn't so much developed as he was just pure insanity, I think. He's the Joker, essentially. A villain you love to love and secretly want to root for...or maybe that's just me >_>

I do have an argument for kain.

Kain loves his friend Cecil, but also loves rosa.I would compare Kain to Lancelot from the Arthur stories, because Lancelot is clearly flawed human being, slept with Arthur's wife and felt regret.I got a sense that deep down, kain felt remorse for it at the end.There are not that many that I know of like Kain in the series.

I still stand by kefka.Remember:Ff6 came out before dark knight, so it would be dark knight copying kefka.Also keep in mind that kefka held together ff6 in a way that ff7 couldn't, giving the characters a strong reason to hate kefka.Ignore dissidia which in my opinion isn't even cannon, and takes liberties to change the characters.Kefka was made to resemble the joker even more in dissidia, sort of like how ff7 fans were complaining that it was the movie that made cloud emo.

Also keep in mind that it was terra who is the main opposite of kefka, and they are absolute opposites.I think it is terra as well.

It's true ff6 doesn't have a true main character, but terra would be the closest thing.Terras backstory is tragic, and emphasizes most on how much of a monster kefka was.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 18th July 2015 09:57

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Posted: 18th July 2015 21:40

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Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 18th July 2015 03:54)

I do have an argument for kain.

Kain loves his friend Cecil, but also loves rosa.I would compare Kain to Lancelot from the Arthur stories, because Lancelot is clearly flawed human being, slept with Arthur's wife and felt regret.I got a sense that deep down, kain felt remorse for it at the end.There are not that many that I know of like Kain in the series.

I still stand by kefka.Remember:Ff6 came out before dark knight, so it would be dark knight copying kefka.Also keep in mind that kefka held together ff6 in a way that ff7 couldn't, giving the characters a strong reason to hate kefka.Ignore dissidia which in my opinion isn't even cannon, and takes liberties to change the characters.Kefka was made to resemble the joker even more in dissidia, sort of like how ff7 fans were complaining that it was the movie that made cloud emo.

Also keep in mind that it was terra who is the main opposite of kefka, and they are absolute opposites.I think it is terra as well.

It's true ff6 doesn't have a true main character, but terra would be the closest thing.Terras backstory is tragic, and emphasizes most on how much of a monster kefka was.



Well, I wasn't just comparing Kefka to TDK's Joker, but the Joker in general and I never played Dissidia, so I can't speak for the changes to Kefka. I'm not saying they are the same, just similar and perhaps the Joker was a huge influence of the creation of Kefka by the creators but I cannot find any actual evidence to support this.

Which must mean there is no possible way that it is true. tongue.gif

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Posted: 18th July 2015 21:48
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Quote
What about Ramza Beoulve? The intrepid young noble who became more cynical as the game progressed, but never broke away from his core principles? his sense of honor and justice constantly shaken as he's manipulated into doing one thing after another?[/CODE]


I think Ramza was the same from the beginning until the end... Cinnamon roll too good too pure for this world. Sometime a character doesn't need a development to be remarkable.

Meanwhile, I think Delita had the best character development. The way he fell into that fate wasn't any surprising, but still heart breaking.
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Posted: 19th July 2015 12:35

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Quote (Dynamic Threads @ 18th July 2015 21:40)
Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 18th July 2015 03:54)

I do have an argument for kain.

Kain loves his friend Cecil, but also loves rosa.I would compare Kain to Lancelot from the Arthur stories, because Lancelot is clearly flawed human being, slept with Arthur's wife and felt regret.I got a sense that deep down, kain felt remorse for it at the end.There are not that many that I know of like Kain in the series.

I still stand by kefka.Remember:Ff6 came out before dark knight, so it would be dark knight copying kefka.Also keep in mind that kefka held together ff6 in a way that ff7 couldn't, giving the characters a strong reason to hate kefka.Ignore dissidia which in my opinion isn't even cannon, and takes liberties to change the characters.Kefka was made to resemble the joker even more in dissidia, sort of like how ff7 fans were complaining that it was the movie that made cloud emo.

Also keep in mind that it was terra who is the main opposite of kefka, and they are absolute opposites.I think it is terra as well.

It's true ff6 doesn't have a true main character, but terra would be the closest thing.Terras backstory is tragic, and emphasizes most on how much of a monster kefka was.



Well, I wasn't just comparing Kefka to TDK's Joker, but the Joker in general and I never played Dissidia, so I can't speak for the changes to Kefka. I'm not saying they are the same, just similar and perhaps the Joker was a huge influence of the creation of Kefka by the creators but I cannot find any actual evidence to support this.

Which must mean there is no possible way that it is true. tongue.gif

All I am saying is:Kefka predates the dark knight, possibly the mark Hamil joker animation.

I also felt the original game was different from dissidia.

I didn't see kefka as the joker back then.I know he dresses funny, but if you look at the thing where kefka attacks narshe, he is very very different from the joker.He might be funny, but he is a vicious psychopath who is also very unstable, and that is one thing you notice about kefka.He has a viciousness and using people in a way the joker never did.

The joker is great, but there was more silliness and craziness there.If you look at mark Hamils joker, he is hilarious, but absolutely nuts.My favorite is when the joker is firing at a canister full of gas, and batman says:Stop shooting that canister you lunatic, you will kill us all.Right there, you get an impression that he is beyond reasoning with, and is willing to kill himself because he Is not fully logical.

Kefka while also being illogical, Is closer to the dark knight version of the joker, yet even then he isn't the same.Reason being:Just look at how he poisons doma, and takes delight.Nothing more pleasurable than the screaming in unison uwee uwee hehehe,or when he is in thamasa and uses the espers causing mass destruction.He even kills his own men at the beginning of the game.The picture the game paints, is of a man driven with ambition and willing to do anything to get what he wants, even if it means killing the people who hired him.

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Posted: 19th July 2015 15:50

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I have frequently compared Kefka to the Joker on many occasions. This stands in particular to the comic book version of the Joker. I will cite one particular mini series written in the late 80's titled "The Killing Joke", where the deeds Joker performs that are probably the most horrifying of any Batman villain.

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His most notorious acts include kicking down Barbara Gordon's door, beating her savagely, raping her, and finally leaving her to die in a pool of her own blood. Barbara would survive, but would be paralyzed from the waist down. She would become the Oracle.

He also would kill a teenaged Robin. While Robin was trying to dispose of a bomb, the Joker proceeded to club him with a crow bar. Robin would later die in the subsequent explosion.

When Batman finally approached the Joker to finally make him pay for not only those two crimes, but all of the other ones he committed, Joker could only laugh loudly.


If you can find The Killing Joke, I'd highly recommend it. As far as its parallel to Kefka, I don't know what the creators had to say about that. If someone could show me an interview in regard to that subject, that would be great.

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Posted: 19th July 2015 17:24

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I didn't see kefka as the joker back then.I know he dresses funny, but if you look at the thing where kefka attacks narshe, he is very very different from the joker.He might be funny, but he is a vicious psychopath who is also very unstable, and that is one thing you notice about kefka.He has a viciousness and using people in a way the joker never did.


That is literally the exact thing Joker is.

--------------------
I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...
Post #209385
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Posted: 19th July 2015 17:39

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Quote (Sherick @ 19th July 2015 10:24)
Quote
I didn't see kefka as the joker back then.I know he dresses funny, but if you look at the thing where kefka attacks narshe, he is very very different from the joker.He might be funny, but he is a vicious psychopath who is also very unstable, and that is one thing you notice about kefka.He has a viciousness and using people in a way the joker never did.


That is literally the exact thing Joker is.

Well, not exactly. The Joker is nowhere near as vicious as Kefka; he's never managed to do much more than terrorize Gotham, and while he uses Harley Quinn, I do believe there are some comics in which he shows he cares about her (I'll get back to you on that when I find them).
The Joker also seems to genuinely care about Batman; without him showing up to stop him, it'd be a lot less fun to commit his nefarious deeds.
Kefka, unlike the Joker, is incapable of caring about anything, even a little, and it gets to the point where he decides life, and everything included in it, is pointless.
The Joker never gets to such a point.


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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.
Post #209386
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Posted: 19th July 2015 18:17

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Black Waltz
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There are differences in the characters for sure, but that doesn't make Joker not vicious. I'd say it's pretty likely the creators had Joker in mind somewhat when they created Kefka, though I've never heard that confirmed.

--------------------
I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...
Post #209387
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Posted: 19th July 2015 19:02

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Cactuar
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I think most people don't realize the Joker was a complete sociopath in several graphic novels, especially in the 80s. I think the best Joker, IMO, is Mark Hamill's from the animated series and videogames. He's not too psychopathic, but borders on mad perfectly while still maintaining a jester-like personality.

However, I don't like Jack Nicholson's "gangster" joker and don't think Heath Ledger's "anarchist" joker had anything to do with what the Joker actually is. It was a great take on the character, but the Joker is chaotic-evil.

http://easydamus.com/chaoticevil.html

But I don't think it can be argued that Kefka and Joker aren't eerily similar in design and personality. They are both Chaotic-Evil characters, for one and they are both clown/jester type characters.

This doesn't take away from Kefka at all and it could certainly be argued that Kefka is the greater evil of the two.

But how much character development does Kefka actually have? Could it be argued that Kefka is more of a deconstruction of character development? He mirror's Terra and Celes' character developments by actually regressing into a chaotic mess. A deconstruction to their construction.


EDIT: I have also read that Kefka in the Japanese version was more of a man-child and more jester-like as opposed to the diabolical madman clown in the US/english versions.

This post has been edited by Dynamic Threads on 19th July 2015 19:06

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Post #209388
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Posted: 19th July 2015 22:54

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Quote (Sherick @ 19th July 2015 11:17)
There are differences in the characters for sure, but that doesn't make Joker not vicious. I'd say it's pretty likely the creators had Joker in mind somewhat when they created Kefka, though I've never heard that confirmed.

I didn't actually say that the Joker isn't vicious, I just stated that Kefka is more so. eh.gif
And he puts more effort into his appearance than the Joker, or is that just me?

Quote (DynamicThreads)

EDIT: I have also read that Kefka in the Japanese version was more of a man-child and more jester-like as opposed to the diabolical madman clown in the US/english versions.

Yeah, he is. Ted Woosely translated his lines to exaggerate the sadistic side of his personality, and it's an impression that stuck. In Japanese, Kefka even uses boku-chin when speaking about himself, which is something only young boys use. How young exactly, I don't know. In Dissidia (though I don't really consider the events in it canon) he acts much more childish. Just watch any of his intro quotes, you'll see what I mean.

Quote (DynamicThreads)
But how much character development does Kefka actually have? Could it be argued that Kefka is more of a deconstruction of character development? He mirror's Terra and Celes' character developments by actually regressing into a chaotic mess. A deconstruction to their construction.

And while I don't like to think of Dissidia as canon, it does offer some (slight) character development for Kefka.

This post has been edited by Ker on 19th July 2015 22:59

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"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.
Post #209389
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Posted: 20th July 2015 07:59

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The reason I don't like people comparing kefka to the joker, is the same reason people don't like comparing sephiroth to inuyasha:

There is the fear that the person Is automatically doing it to disqualify something they don't like, and put down.

This is also why I think that possibly the Ted Wolsey translation is superior to the Japanese, which resembles the joker.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Post #209390
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Posted: 20th July 2015 17:08

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Black Waltz
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When has Sephiroth ever been compared to Inuyasha?
Also, why's it bad to be compared to the Joker?

--------------------
I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...
Post #209391
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Posted: 20th July 2015 17:31

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Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 20th July 2015 00:59)
The reason I don't like people comparing kefka to the joker, is the same reason people don't like comparing sephiroth to inuyasha:

There is the fear that the person Is automatically doing it to disqualify something they don't like, and put down.

This is also why I think that possibly the Ted Wolsey translation is superior to the Japanese, which resembles the joker.

Hey, now. Just because Kefka is similar to the Joker it doesn't make it a bad thing. Practically every jester character that is evil could be compared to the two.
And Ted actually made a whole lot of mistakes in his translation, just a few being, "fenix downs" and, "son of a submariner!" While the latter is one of Kefka's most remembered lines and one of my personal favorites, it's still wrong. Kefka was not meant to be a complete sadist from the beginning, and while Ted's translation is memorable and the general American idea of Kefka, the fact is that he is meant to behave a lot more childishly. I mean, come on. He skips like a schoolgirl, with a Tigger-esque bouncing sound. The whole scene in Thamasa (on the GBA version at least) has him doing so, and all of his intro quotes in Dissidia do, too.
I don't like when people call Sephiroth a mama's boy, for the exact reason you stated. Having an Oedipus complex doesn't mean he's a bad villain.

--------------------

"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.
Post #209392
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Posted: 20th July 2015 18:31

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Black Waltz
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I like the take that's a mix between the two, so that he's childish and viciously sadistic. Like the Joker flag-olly.gif

This post has been edited by Sherick on 20th July 2015 18:31

--------------------
I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...
Post #209393
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Posted: 21st July 2015 16:23

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Quote (Sherick @ 20th July 2015 11:31)
I like the take that's a mix between the two, so that he's childish and viciously sadistic. Like the Joker   flag-olly.gif

You know, I've always felt that describing Kefka as "like the Joker" is bland. Kefka is indeed like the Joker, and the Joker is like him. But simply saying that Kefka is "like the Joker" and leaving it at that, well... It's fairly tasteless, to me, because Kefka is so much more than the Joker.



(*cough*and at least Kefka's scrap of a backstory isn't constantly changing*COUGH*)





EDIT: Damn it, Kefka, stop taking over topics that don't belong to you. pinch.gif

This post has been edited by Ker on 21st July 2015 16:28

--------------------

"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.
Post #209395
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Posted: 21st July 2015 17:10

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Quote (Sherick @ 20th July 2015 17:08)
When has Sephiroth ever been compared to Inuyasha?
Also, why's it bad to be compared to the Joker?

Not sephiroth, but ff7 in general.I may have heard others, but I don't remember.The one I do remember, is razorfist on YouTube comparing ff7 to gay inuyasha fan fiction.

I also think whittling down things to generalizations are attempts to undermine something which might have quality, but you or someone else do not like.

Sort of like the whole thing of people calling kefka a joker rip of or sephiroth as an emo mamas boy with an Oedipus complex.

We as a gamer culture have to stop doing this.


Anyways:I prefer Ted woolseys version of kefka, because he seems less like the joker, and more sadisitic and different.The Japanese version in my opinion comes too close.Its good, but sadistic kefka is better, because he is less predictable and more evil and unstable.

I think there are other great characters, but I have to think of them.

I liked delita, but I don't know if I could consider him evil, since all he shit that has happened to him.I think you must also forgive Ramza, as he is young and honest.He would never predict thee king was evil and using him.

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Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Post #209396
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Posted: 21st July 2015 19:26

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Black Waltz
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Quote (Ker @ 21st July 2015 11:23)
Quote (Sherick @ 20th July 2015 11:31)
I like the take that's a mix between the two, so that he's childish and viciously sadistic. Like the Joker   flag-olly.gif

You know, I've always felt that describing Kefka as "like the Joker" is bland. Kefka is indeed like the Joker, and the Joker is like him. But simply saying that Kefka is "like the Joker" and leaving it at that, well... It's fairly tasteless, to me, because Kefka is so much more than the Joker.



(*cough*and at least Kefka's scrap of a backstory isn't constantly changing*COUGH*)

Well, the ever-changing backstory is a big part of Joker's character, as he implies many times that he doesn't even know what his true identity is anymore. His most common--and most likely to be true--backstory is The Killing Joke one anyway.

--------------------
I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...
Post #209398
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Posted: 21st July 2015 20:18

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Quote (Sherick @ 21st July 2015 12:26)
Quote (Ker @ 21st July 2015 11:23)
Quote (Sherick @ 20th July 2015 11:31)
I like the take that's a mix between the two, so that he's childish and viciously sadistic. Like the Joker   flag-olly.gif

You know, I've always felt that describing Kefka as "like the Joker" is bland. Kefka is indeed like the Joker, and the Joker is like him. But simply saying that Kefka is "like the Joker" and leaving it at that, well... It's fairly tasteless, to me, because Kefka is so much more than the Joker.



(*cough*and at least Kefka's scrap of a backstory isn't constantly changing*COUGH*)

Well, the ever-changing backstory is a big part of Joker's character, as he implies many times that he doesn't even know what his true identity is anymore. His most common--and most likely to be true--backstory is The Killing Joke one anyway.

DC comics (especially Batman)) are absolutely drenched in alternate universes, so we'll probably never know the Joker's "true" backstory. Or which series of events is canonical. It's a bit frustrating.

--------------------

"I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury:
"I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death.
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Posted: 21st July 2015 22:05

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Black Waltz
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That's the point though. If we actually knew his backstory it wouldn't be as interesting. Joker's a man without a past, he has no alternate identity, he is 100% The Joker.

Off topic though, sorry to digress. Kefka is definitely different from the classic Joker and is interesting for different reasons. As it relates to the topic though, I don't really see much development from him, just that more of his insanity is revealed.

--------------------
I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...
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