Posted: 11th August 2013 10:45
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Black Waltz Posts: 900 Joined: 12/7/2011 Awards: |
CoN Forum Rules say that I must post a note in the title if I want to post a thread that will be very likely to have spoilers in it: I did so.
Basically, I think Cid's death, along with Leo's and Shadow's, are much better ways for a story of this nature to address the feeling of losing someone. A beautiful woman dying is a cliche. A beautiful woman seeing THE ONLY OTHER PERSON LEFT IN THE WORLD (or so she thinks) die is mind-blowing. Nobody saves Cid the first time, and those who say they did without having spoiled it for themselves are lying. When you find out later that it is possible to save him, the fact that you let him die the first time haunts you forever. Also, Cloud does not attempt suicide when Aerith dies. Nobody in Final Fantasy VII attempts suicide but Dyne, and since he's both a totally new character in the story, and doesn't appear/is rarely, if ever mentioned again, he's not of much consequence. A side note: Celes attempting suicide was (infuriatingly) censored out of the dialogue in the original domestic release. Compare the two: a love interest dies. That's traumatic, sure. But Aerith isn't painted only as a love interest, though the massive shipping wars tend to make us forget that. Her name (whichever Romanization you use) has been pointed out to be an anagram for "Raise" (Aeris) or "I, earth." (Aerith). Aerith is a Messianic figure. The shot of her face after the camera finishes cutting through the party's reactions is intended to cast her as the Mother Goddess, the Earth Mother. In other words...Aerith's body is dead, but Aerith is alive. Aerith is immortal. Cid's, Leo's and Shadow's deaths aren't like that at all. It's true that it's possible to save Cid and Shadow, but again, unless someone spoiled it for themselves with the Nintendo Power Strategy Guide, I really doubt a first-timer would catch on quickly enough what was happening. They just don't expect it. It's a blindside. Even Tellah, in FF4, reappears during the ending. Once Cid and Shadow and Leo are dead, they're gone. Shadow gets a simple retrospective in the ending that might as well be a musical eulogy, and a very sad one at that, with his theme being pushed to even greater emotional effect than usual. Even if he lives, his ending is that he commits suicide. Death is impartial, universal, and leaves an emptiness that is never truly resolved. Aerith's death (given the final shot before the credits roll) is resolved...her spirit lives on. Final Fantasy VI takes it from a decidedly non-spritual point of view, and this, in my opinion, gives a much more human, much more crushing impression of what it's like to lose someone. This post has been edited by Spooniest on 11th August 2013 10:46 -------------------- X is blue. |
Post #204152
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Posted: 11th August 2013 18:28
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None of the deaths in VI, or Celes' suicide scene really do anything for me.
I never really cared about the characters enough for it to have an impact, same with Tellah in IV. Aeris/Aerith and Galuf's deaths are the only ones in FF that I feel anything for. I think I need the character to be in the party a lot to get attached to them. Deaths that take place during the ending of a game don't do much for me either since you don't have to deal with their absence from the party. This post has been edited by ILoveMoombas! on 11th August 2013 18:29 -------------------- FF games completed: I (psp), II (psp), III (DS), IV (psp), V (GBA), VI (GBA), VII, VIII, IX, X, XI: Nations-Rhapsodies of Vana'diel, XII, XIII, XIV, XV. Spin-offs: FFIV: Interlude & The After Years, Crisis Core: FFVII, X-2, XIII-2, Lightning Returns, Type-0 HD, Dissidia, Dissidia 012, and Tactics (original & WotL). Enjoyed them all. |
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Post #204156
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Posted: 14th August 2013 05:12
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Returner Posts: 21 Joined: 10/8/2013 Awards: |
NOOOO!!!! Why did i read this?! Damn, I friggin love Celes .
-------------------- I prefer the term "treasure hunting"! |
Post #204181
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Posted: 4th October 2013 02:49
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Onion Knight Posts: 27 Joined: 29/9/2013 Awards: |
The characters In VI affected me way more than the others. Galuf and Tellah had a little bit of impact as well...
Am I the only one who didn't care about Aeris? When she died I actually shouted "Bout F$&@in' time!" -------------------- PSN : everum89 Before your mother, before your god, you will call for me, for I am your medic, and I will always come for you! |
Post #204808
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Posted: 4th October 2013 03:33
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Black Waltz Posts: 900 Joined: 12/7/2011 Awards: |
Aerith died?
Coulda fooled me -------------------- X is blue. |
Post #204809
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Posted: 11th January 2014 19:52
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Cactuar Posts: 242 Joined: 13/6/2001 Awards: |
The consensus in the mid and somewhat late 90s was that CID dies no matter what. Even the guidebook suggests he can only die. People on Gamewiz, ANT, and VGA claimed I was lying sort of like when I told people GTA III's main character wasn't named Fido she just called him that because he did fetch quests like a dog.
Right on both counts -------------------- His Divine Shadow |
Post #205961
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Posted: 28th May 2014 06:21
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Treasure Hunter Posts: 68 Joined: 27/5/2014 Awards: |
Rise, dead thread...rise!
*ahem* I recall knowing--from Nintendo Power, I think--that Cid could be saved, but for the life of me, I couldn't manage to do it. It took me a few playthroughs to figure out how to (vaguely) judge the fish and such. And yes, I felt terribly guilty...and did not at all buy the censored dialogue. It was pretty clear what was going on up on that cliff, and it wasn't any kind of 'leap of faith.' These days, I actually tend to let Cid die. Heresy, perhaps, but I think it's a more realistic chain of events, and I think the aftermath of it is more compelling for Celes' character development. -------------------- This is a signature. You might think that there is something to it...but in fact it is just an ordinary signature. |
Post #206871
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Posted: 6th July 2014 02:19
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Black Mage Posts: 212 Joined: 3/12/2003 Awards: |
I always saved Cid. I think I had a strategy guide that said it was possible. I just felt indebted to him, and I've always liked the Cid characters.
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Post #207180
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Posted: 27th October 2014 09:46
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Cactuar Posts: 249 Joined: 4/3/2007 Awards: |
Don't jinx it. I'm sure there's a 'Toy' story out there. Everyone made it to the end and no one got hurt. *Gets blown up by a missle to the back*
-------------------- https://www.youtube.com/user/Greatermaxim Terra - LV 99 - HP 9999 - MP 999 Equipment - - - Abilities Illumina - - - - - Fight Genji Shield - - Morph Oath Veil - - - - Magic Minerva - - - - - Item Ribbon Economizer |
Post #207599
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Posted: 12th November 2014 18:11
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Chocobo Knight Posts: 150 Joined: 18/3/2006 Awards: |
I've saved him before, but it's too much of a hassle for me to bother with as you don't really get anything out of it. It actually makes for a better story IMO with him dying anyway.
I don't find this Cid as endearing as some of the other ones either. I don't think he's totally evil, but he's not saint either. |
Post #207681
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Posted: 14th November 2014 10:08
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Black Waltz Posts: 900 Joined: 12/7/2011 Awards: |
Quote (Billdolfski @ 12th November 2014 13:11) I don't find this Cid as endearing as some of the other ones either. I don't think he's totally evil, but he's not saint either. Interesting. There appears to be a certain amount of Karma to the fact that Cid seems biased towards dying. Oftentimes, you aren't given many fish to work with, and if you happen to choose the wrong one without knowledge of the properties of the fish (the faster, the more healthy they are), Cid suffers as a result. Apparently the universe of FFVI kind of has it in for the dude. He did, after all, grant the Empire the power necessary to take over a large portion of the world, slaughter an entire country, and created Kefka, for that matter. It is kind of his fault the world was decimated. -------------------- X is blue. |
Post #207722
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Posted: 19th November 2014 12:07
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Cactuar Posts: 249 Joined: 4/3/2007 Awards: |
Warning: Snarky
What makes Cid a statistic outside of a story trope? I don't suppose one will program a game where the hero/ine can't win. -------------------- https://www.youtube.com/user/Greatermaxim Terra - LV 99 - HP 9999 - MP 999 Equipment - - - Abilities Illumina - - - - - Fight Genji Shield - - Morph Oath Veil - - - - Magic Minerva - - - - - Item Ribbon Economizer |
Post #207756
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Posted: 25th April 2015 03:30
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Black Mage Posts: 198 Joined: 17/2/2015 Awards: |
I didn't feel sorry for Cid at all because of the Espers and Kefka. He knew what he was doing to the Espers, and to put another human being through so much pain that they turned out like Kefka? Nuh uh. No pity for you, Cid.
-------------------- "I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury: "I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death. |
Post #208596
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Posted: 25th April 2015 07:11
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Black Mage Posts: 178 Joined: 7/1/2014 Awards: |
From a story standpoint, Cid passing on is tragic, but not like it has previously been mentioned. Cid understood what he was doing, when he tortured those Espers (though if Kefka was the first infused person, he probably had no idea what would happen to the guy), and even admitted as much during the game. He starts his path of redemption by aiding the party's escape from the factory. He then pleads with the Emperor to stop the war, taking the side of the Returners during the dinner party. Those didn't redeem him much, but it showed that he was contrite. Ultimately, he sacrificed his health and what few resources he had keeping Celes alive, and later nursing her back to health. Even afterword, Cid ultimately gets the process of taking Kefka down started when, during his days of waning health, he builds the raft. It wasn't much, and it was only part of the beginning, but it's there nonetheless. The tragedy is that he tried so hard to make amends for what he did, and wound up dying as a result of it.
That's why Cid's death is tragic. -------------------- "So, are you a fan of the Fett?" "Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy." |
Post #208597
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Posted: 25th April 2015 14:21
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Black Mage Posts: 198 Joined: 17/2/2015 Awards: |
Quote (chevleclair @ 25th April 2015 00:11) From a story standpoint, Cid passing on is tragic, but not like it has previously been mentioned. Cid understood what he was doing, when he tortured those Espers (though if Kefka was the first infused person, he probably had no idea what would happen to the guy), and even admitted as much during the game. He starts his path of redemption by aiding the party's escape from the factory. He then pleads with the Emperor to stop the war, taking the side of the Returners during the dinner party. Those didn't redeem him much, but it showed that he was contrite. Ultimately, he sacrificed his health and what few resources he had keeping Celes alive, and later nursing her back to health. Even afterword, Cid ultimately gets the process of taking Kefka down started when, during his days of waning health, he builds the raft. It wasn't much, and it was only part of the beginning, but it's there nonetheless. The tragedy is that he tried so hard to make amends for what he did, and wound up dying as a result of it. That's why Cid's death is tragic. Sure, I guess. But that's like saying, "Mad Scientist A tortured living things and turned something else into a superweapon that went AWOL! Oh, he feels bad about it and helps out a tiny bit. He's cool now." I'm just not feeling it. All those Espers suffered for years, having their magic drained and otherwise being experimented on, and while I think he apologized for that, he didn't bother even taking the blame for making Kefka like he is. Oh, no, he turns it around like Kefka made himself utterly insane. Regardless of whether Kefka volunteered or was voluntold, it's stated as fact that the infusion drove him mad, implying that he was more-or-less normal beforehand. Assuming that Cid didn't know how it would affect him, he probably should have stopped when Kefka started displaying distress- like crying, screaming, etc. And since Celes got to sleep through her infusion, it was probably fairly painful, if not intensely so. So in light of that, I really can't pity him. At all. Celes, on the other hand, I felt bad for. -------------------- "I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury: "I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death. |
Post #208598
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Posted: 25th April 2015 17:16
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Black Mage Posts: 178 Joined: 7/1/2014 Awards: |
A tiny bit? Giving every last bit of his health to make sure Celes lives and escapes to take down the monster he created only counts as a "tiny bit"? I disagree, but see your point.
Then again, it's a case of a contrite person who gives his life to try and put right the wrongs he had committed and then fails. That is also tragic. As much as you make excuses for Kefka's behavior (he DID destroy the world after all, but clearly it's not his fault...?), maybe Cid did try to stop the infusion and was coerced. He was working for someone who had the power to not only kill him, but to destroy everyone and everything he cared about. You make the assumption that what drove Kefka mad (he should still be held responsible, he knew full well what he was doing, and how wrong it was, but didn't care) was due to some form of post traumatic stress. When someone's station in life is suddenly changed for better or worse, their personality (yes, Kefka's a sociopath, which is a personality disorder, not a mental one) will change dramatically as well. When given a taste of true power, Kefka craved more unto extremes. That's more likely given that PTSD finds the person often turning inward. Perhaps it was PTSD mixed with the positive reinforcement of receiving power so suddenly- who knows? -------------------- "So, are you a fan of the Fett?" "Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy." |
Post #208601
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Posted: 25th April 2015 20:39
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Behemoth Posts: 2,674 Joined: 9/12/2006 Awards: |
Quote (chevleclair @ 25th April 2015 13:16) A tiny bit? Giving every last bit of his health to make sure Celes lives and escapes to take down the monster he created only counts as a "tiny bit"? I disagree, but see your point. Then again, it's a case of a contrite person who gives his life to try and put right the wrongs he had committed and then fails. That is also tragic. As much as you make excuses for Kefka's behavior (he DID destroy the world after all, but clearly it's not his fault...?), maybe Cid did try to stop the infusion and was coerced. He was working for someone who had the power to not only kill him, but to destroy everyone and everything he cared about. You make the assumption that what drove Kefka mad (he should still be held responsible, he knew full well what he was doing, and how wrong it was, but didn't care) was due to some form of post traumatic stress. When someone's station in life is suddenly changed for better or worse, their personality (yes, Kefka's a sociopath, which is a personality disorder, not a mental one) will change dramatically as well. When given a taste of true power, Kefka craved more unto extremes. That's more likely given that PTSD finds the person often turning inward. Perhaps it was PTSD mixed with the positive reinforcement of receiving power so suddenly- who knows? I'm with you on this one. Cid is repentant. And besides, I would not blame any individual but rather the empire itself. -------------------- |
Post #208602
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Posted: 25th April 2015 20:48
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Black Mage Posts: 198 Joined: 17/2/2015 Awards: |
Quote (chevleclair @ 25th April 2015 10:16) As much as you make excuses for Kefka's behavior (he DID destroy the world after all, but clearly it's not his fault...?), maybe Cid did try to stop the infusion and was coerced. He was working for someone who had the power to not only kill him, but to destroy everyone and everything he cared about. To your first comment, I could either be sarcastic or make a point. I choose the latter by saying that I didn't make excuses for Kefka's behavior in the slightest. Did I say destroying the world was okay? Hm, nope, don't think I did. I always acknowledged that he was completely able to think rationally and be held responsible. If I remember right, you made almost the same assumption when Blitz said he should receive care for his mental/personality disorders and not be tortured. What I actually said was that what drove him mad was stressed in game to be the infusion. Most likely, it was very painful. Especially as it was, I quote, 'imperfect'. Hence, yeah, there was probably some PTSD. I'm not saying that he was perfectly healthy to begin with- a lot of people have personality disorders. Therefore. Cid could be held responsible for starting the whole mess. Does that mean it's Cid's fault and not Kefka's? Hmm, nope, I'm pretty sure the blonde tossed the Emperor off a floating island. Would it have happened at all if Cid hadn't done the infusion? Possibly, but probably not. To your second comment, I say, yes, that's completely possible. I'd not thought about it before. -------------------- "I'll be judge, I'll be jury," said cunning old Fury: "I'll try the whole cause, and condemn you to death. |
Post #208603
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Posted: 12th June 2015 13:50
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Onion Knight Posts: 29 Joined: 1/6/2015 Awards: |
My first time attempting to get fish for Cid was spent grinding out of carelessness and not having any idea how to catch the fish. (Talking to that bloody seagull didn't do anything other than infuriate me.)
Safe to say Cid died but I got that amazingly heart wrenching scene with that accompanying musical piece so I wasn't too bummed out about Cid'S death. |
Post #209110
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Posted: 3rd August 2015 11:31
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Returner Posts: 7 Joined: 3/8/2015 |
My interpretation of Cid is that he fills the role of Albert Einstein as interpreted by Japanese culture; a scientist more interested in 'is the thing possible' rather than 'is the thing right?' who goes on to later deeply regret his decisions but left in the position of never being able to do enough good to ever 'balance' it. (That is, of course, more like Oppenheimer, but Japan still tends to associate this with Einstein and this is a common trope in Japanese culture; See: Megaman, Evangelion, Akira)
True, Cid did not do much but none the less, Cid did give everything he could up to and including his own life. However, I believe that Cid does not regret his life in the end, not because he was okay with all the harm he did, but because one great good came out of it all; Celes. For all the time he spent willfully ignorant of the implications of his actions, the only thing he truly ever found meaning from was in her. To look back at ones life and see nothing but the suffering you have caused but find yourself unable to regret it, because you cannot contain your selfish love for another? That is tragic. This post has been edited by Asuka on 3rd August 2015 11:42 |
Post #209458
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