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Your opinions on FFIV

Posted: 6th May 2010 02:31

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I will concede that the experience the writers gained in FFIV helped them write later, better plots, but I am taking the story on its own merits. As for how the game can be good and the story can be bad, well, that just means the gameplay is really good. happy.gif

This post has been edited by Smash Genesis on 6th May 2010 02:31

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Posted: 6th May 2010 05:55

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Quote (Smash Genesis @ 6th May 2010 02:31)
I will concede that the experience the writers gained in FFIV helped them write later, better plots, but I am taking the story on its own merits. As for how the game can be good and the story can be bad, well, that just means the gameplay is really good. happy.gif

The story of the moon and being a lunarian may sound cheesy,but the rest was very good.

Cecil's struggle against what he was becoming is symbolic.

The story of the characters themselves are very very good.

They have quite strong character development.

In fact i would go as far as to say that ff4 character development is better than ff7.

Way better in fact.





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Posted: 6th May 2010 16:04

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What character development? Each character, with the exceptions of Cecil and Kain, develops about twice over the course of the game.

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Posted: 6th May 2010 16:50

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Quote (Smash Genesis @ 6th May 2010 16:04)
What character development? Each character, with the exceptions of Cecil and Kain, develops about twice over the course of the game.

Rydia for an example grows up and stops wimpering and sacrifices her fear of fire to help the team.

She learns black magic.

Sage tellah suffers so much from the death of his daughter that he lives to avenge her and finds out that he no longer had anything left to live for because his anger and veangance was in vain and died finding out it was all pointless.

Kain deep down loves rosa and is jealous of cecil but he doesn't want to sacrifice his friendship over it.

Rosa loves cecil and believes in him and wishes to aid him in ending the whole thing that started the problem,which would be zeromus.

Yang's story actually falls shorter than the 4 main characters because he sacrifices himself to help cecil to prevent the destruction of the dwarves.

In truth it is the only way but he doesn't die.

Cid is a simple story rather than any of them as yangs:

Cid wants to stop golbez from acquiring the crystals and loves his airship and doesn't want it to be used as a weapon.

Cid is awesome,but he is cool in most,cept maybe in ff8.

Edge is trying to save his kingdom from zeromus because he lost his parents an his kingdom.

Edge has that sort of a sense of humor and isn't as serious as cecil or rydia or rosa or kain.

The characters are limited,but it came out in 1991.

for its time it was pretty good.

FF4 does have more character developement than the ons of the past like:FF3 for the nes ff2 for the nes ff1 for the nes FF legend for the gameboy.

It also has more developement than earthbound in characters.

Yes i like earthbound but for the gameplay.

The story itself is ok.

Now illusion of gaia has better developement than final fantasy 4.

Of course this is my opinion,but i feel a connection to the characters.

Super mario rpg is actually pretty good.

i still think that the late 90s final fantasy were nowhere near as good as the early snes.

The characters were missing that kick that makes a character interesting and fun.



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Posted: 6th May 2010 17:28

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You've named ONE instance of development for each character. Characters have to be developing CONSTANTLY. Heck, some of what you mentioned isn't even character development at all; it's just summarizing the character. Let's start from the top, shall we?


"Rydia for an example grows up and stops wimpering and sacrifices her fear of fire to help the team." Okay, that's one instance of notable development. So, in addition to her super-sudden "OMG, Cecil and I are bffls now even though he just killed my mother and burned down my hometown" moment, that makes two instances of development. Care to name more?

"Rydia learns black magic." Um, Rydia knew black magic from the start of the game. Second, "learning black magic" doesn't count as character development because it doesn't affect who she is as a person.

"Sage tellah suffers so much from the death of his daughter that he lives to avenge her and finds out that he no longer had anything left to live for because his anger and veangance was in vain and died finding out it was all pointless." Okay, so his character changes ONCE. Dying isn't character development, it's character death.

Kain deep down loves rosa and is jealous of cecil but he doesn't want to sacrifice his friendship over it. That's Kain's character in a nutshell. FOR ALMOST THE ENTIRE GAME.

Rosa loves cecil and believes in him and wishes to aid him in ending the whole thing that started the problem,which would be zeromus. Same as above.

Yang's story actually falls shorter than the 4 main characters because he sacrifices himself to help cecil to prevent the destruction of the dwarves.

In truth it is the only way but he doesn't die.

Cid is a simple story rather than any of them as yangs:

Cid wants to stop golbez from acquiring the crystals and loves his airship and doesn't want it to be used as a weapon.
Yeah, um, I might be the only one to notice this, but Tellah is the only one who actually dies. Every other time someone "dies," it's "OMG, they're dead!" and then a couple of hours later "OMG! They're not dead!"

Edge is trying to save his kingdom from zeromus because he lost his parents an his kingdom.

Edge has that sort of a sense of humor and isn't as serious as cecil or rydia or rosa or kain.
Same as Kain.

The characters are limited,but it came out in 1991.

for its time it was pretty good.
Okay, so basically you're saying "Oh teh charact3rs are wins0me! No, w8 tey isn't, but eez okay cuz it came out in 1991." Um, hello? Betty Smith was writing better in 1943. WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE WAS WRITING BETTER IN 1594.

Really, though? My biggest problem with the story was Cecil. Now, I'm normally pretty tolerant for whiny characters, but Cecil - not so much. Okay, you're a Dark Knight. You chose that path, even though King Baron asked it of you, you CHOSE that path. And so, you're a Dark Knight? Almost nobody says anything about Dark Knights being vile until Mysidia when the Elder is like "YOU CAN'T SAVE THE WORLD! YOU'RE A DARK KNIGHT!" Okay, a little out of nowhere, but let's move on to my second point: Why couldn't Cecil tell his father had been murdered by a demon and that the demon was impersonating his father? If MY father was being impersonated by an ancient archfiend, I'd be able to tell. Furthermore, Cecil shown absolutely no emotion when he finds out Cagnazzo has killed his dad. Yeah, there's a hidden cutscene related to this later on, but c'mon:


Cagnazzo: Cecil, your I killed your father!
Cecil: Then I must act heroic and kill you without another thought on the matter ever again!

(I count King Baron as Cecil's father. They may not be biologically related, but according to the DS remake, Cecil's dad died before Cecil was even born.)


Right, I must sound like a jerk. Sorry.

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Posted: 6th May 2010 18:48

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Quote (Smash Genesis @ 6th May 2010 17:28)
You've named ONE instance of development for each character. Characters have to be developing CONSTANTLY. Heck, some of what you mentioned isn't even character development at all; it's just summarizing the character. Let's start from the top, shall we?


"Rydia for an example grows up and stops wimpering and sacrifices her fear of fire to help the team." Okay, that's one instance of notable development. So, in addition to her super-sudden "OMG, Cecil and I are bffls now even though he just killed my mother and burned down my hometown" moment, that makes two instances of development. Care to name more?

"Rydia learns black magic." Um, Rydia knew black magic from the start of the game. Second, "learning black magic" doesn't count as character development because it doesn't affect who she is as a person.

"Sage tellah suffers so much from the death of his daughter that he lives to avenge her and finds out that he no longer had anything left to live for because his anger and veangance was in vain and died finding out it was all pointless." Okay, so his character changes ONCE. Dying isn't character development, it's character death.

Kain deep down loves rosa and is jealous of cecil but he doesn't want to sacrifice his friendship over it. That's Kain's character in a nutshell. FOR ALMOST THE ENTIRE GAME.

Rosa loves cecil and believes in him and wishes to aid him in ending the whole thing that started the problem,which would be zeromus. Same as above.

Yang's story actually falls shorter than the 4 main characters because he sacrifices himself to help cecil to prevent the destruction of the dwarves.

In truth it is the only way but he doesn't die.

Cid is a simple story rather than any of them as yangs:

Cid wants to stop golbez from acquiring the crystals and loves his airship and doesn't want it to be used as a weapon.
Yeah, um, I might be the only one to notice this, but Tellah is the only one who actually dies. Every other time someone "dies," it's "OMG, they're dead!" and then a couple of hours later "OMG! They're not dead!"

Edge is trying to save his kingdom from zeromus because he lost his parents an his kingdom.

Edge has that sort of a sense of humor and isn't as serious as cecil or rydia or rosa or kain.
Same as Kain.

The characters are limited,but it came out in 1991.

for its time it was pretty good.
Okay, so basically you're saying "Oh teh charact3rs are wins0me! No, w8 tey isn't, but eez okay cuz it came out in 1991." Um, hello? Betty Smith was writing better in 1943. WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE WAS WRITING BETTER IN 1594.

Really, though? My biggest problem with the story was Cecil. Now, I'm normally pretty tolerant for whiny characters, but Cecil - not so much. Okay, you're a Dark Knight. You chose that path, even though King Baron asked it of you, you CHOSE that path. And so, you're a Dark Knight? Almost nobody says anything about Dark Knights being vile until Mysidia when the Elder is like "YOU CAN'T SAVE THE WORLD! YOU'RE A DARK KNIGHT!" Okay, a little out of nowhere, but let's move on to my second point: Why couldn't Cecil tell his father had been murdered by a demon and that the demon was impersonating his father? If MY father was being impersonated by an ancient archfiend, I'd be able to tell. Furthermore, Cecil shown absolutely no emotion when he finds out Cagnazzo has killed his dad. Yeah, there's a hidden cutscene related to this later on, but c'mon:


Cagnazzo: Cecil, your I killed your father!
Cecil: Then I must act heroic and kill you without another thought on the matter ever again!

(I count King Baron as Cecil's father. They may not be biologically related, but according to the DS remake, Cecil's dad died before Cecil was even born.)


Right, I must sound like a jerk. Sorry.

Em how old are you? no offense but the whole leet thing as a attack is something a 10-12 year old would do.

And games aren't like movies.

And if you haven't known,the part of rydia facing her fears the pain of her mom dying and fear of fire are important.

Scenes represent facing some event.

Tellah dying for an example is important

When tellah goes to get meteo to avenge anna and the elder of mysidia tells tellah that he is a stubborn fool tells who he really is.

His realization that he was going to die and he failed is important because he realised too late that he lost everything,even his life and it was all in vain.

In the end he had nothing left because he threw his life away through veangance.

Cecil is trying to fight to change himself.

It is a symbolism to fight his past and what he had become.

Cecil was used he allowed himself to be used by caignazzo and in a way was also a tool to zeromus.

He killed and he was afraid that he was going to become a heartless killer because it was so easy.

Kain cares about cecil because even though he loves rosa,he is cecil's good friend.

He realizes that baron has changed and became a dark dragoon for the king.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view
The king is not the same because he was killed by monsters and after you kill caignazzo,you get to see the real king


Yang realizes that there is trouble and he wants to protect his wife.

He also wants to protect the kingdom of fabul.

This is 1991 not 1993.

If you haven't noticed,games in 1987 and 1988 weren't complex either,in fact they were alot more simple.

I can give you a lot of examples of really simple story games that do what they are soposed to:

Ultima 3 exodus:simple story,good gameplay
Final fantasy 1:Nes-simple story decent gameplay for its time.
Wizardry:Came out in 1979 i think and is famous for its gameplay and had a simple story.

Dragon warrior I II III-nes-1987:Simple story and decent gameplay.

Maybe you are jaded by graphics and don't know any better,or maybe you are just new to games.

The simpler the era,the more simple the story and gameplay.

Newer games have better ways of expressing themselves and more complicated tools they can use like:Voice acting and cutscenes and they also got more room and better sound system for making emotionally sad music.

Technology is a instrument though and not the main tool of a game.

A game should never be based on graphics because they are only a secondary or even third place.

Without good story telling and character development,the game is nothing.

Moderator Edit
Yeah, because telling someone they sound like a ten year old is a good way to make your point. Perhaps you should let it go? -R51


This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 6th May 2010 19:33

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Posted: 6th May 2010 19:15

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Right, sorry about whole "leet attack." I thought it would be a way to get my point across.

I mentioned that the you see King Baron again, but once again, Cecil didn't show any immediate reaction. Think of it this way: You have just found out that one of your parents have been murdered, from the murderer himself. What is your reaction? To kill the killer? Okay, maybe, but that still doesn't mean you're over it. Remember, your parents are DEAD.


And yes, I know games aren't movies, but they stories in general have to conform to a few basic rules. The ones that FFIV breaks are as follows:

1. holding together logically (ex. How did everyone know about the Giant of Babil in advance enough to assemble the world's military for a retaliatory strike?)
2. Characters have to be consistent. (ex. Why did Edge entirely forget about his parents after defeating Rubicante for the first time, especially when finding them had been his primary motivation?)

That brings me to another point: Characters have to have clearly defined wants, and they have to constantly be trying to get what they want. Zemus, for example, wants to enslave the Earth. Cecil's group wants Golbez to fail in his ambiguous plans. Golbez is being manipulated by Zemus, and thus, by their conflicting wants, drama is born. Unfortunately, note everyone has clearly defined wants. Tellah and Cecil, yes, but Rydia? Edge after beating Rubicante?

Furthermore, I never said graphics were everything. Frankly, I think that attitude is why Final Fantasy XIII turned out the way it did. I just said that even if technology is limited, what makes good drama doesn't. And if the technology was preventing them from telling a good story, they should have opted for something much more gameplay oriented. As it is though, 75% of the story was left out due to space constraints, leaving the other 25% severely lacking.

This post has been edited by Smash Genesis on 6th May 2010 19:17

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Posted: 6th May 2010 19:59

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Quote (Smash Genesis @ 6th May 2010 19:15)
note everyone has clearly defined wants. Tellah and Cecil, yes, but Rydia? Edge after beating Rubicante?

Furthermore, I never said graphics were everything. Frankly, I think that attitude is why Final Fantasy XIII turned out the way it did.

I



It is indirectly the fault of golbez that rydia's mom died

It is directly zeromus fault.

The giant of babil was revived and until zeromus is stopped,none of the great kingdoms can be rebuilt.

To add all of that,edge's mom and dad was killed because all of this crystal business.

How would you feel?

She was hurt and furthermore wants to stop zeromus when she finds out that he was behind the whole crystal thing.

Furthermore, I never said graphics were everything. Frankly, I think that attitude is why Final Fantasy XIII turned out the way it did.

I haven't played FFXIII and not sure if i want to.

Frankly,i am turned off by interactive movies.

I like games that have a good story but aren't mostly movie,like metal gear solid 4.

I like story,don't get me wrong but gaming in the ff series is changing and turning more and more into interactive movies and meaningless sidequests that are 50 hours long making the game 400 hours long wih 20 min movies each time.

Not even movies in the cinema are that long.

Sure you don't like FFIV,but a lot of people do like FFIV,respect their opinion and they will respect yours.

A lot of people will disagree with you on the characters themselves and how they are played out.

Look at the characters in earthbound for the snes:

They are simple and not much back story.

In those days you didn't have much.

If you go back in time to 1987 and play ff1 when it came out,you would find the characters have no personality or back story.

This was the first final fantasy,heck even firion of ff2 for the nes didn't have much personality or none at all.

and the story was definitely cliché in ways.

I enjoyed it though because i was trying to enjoy it.

I think that trying helps a lot.

FFIV has things that annoy me,but there are other games that are far worse.


I don't like ff8 much at all and others love it,but even though i don't like it i am trying really hard to not be closed minded about ff8 by beating it and getting a full review.



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Neil Degrasse Tyson.

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Posted: 6th May 2010 20:49

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You're right we should stop. There's no way I'm gonna be able to change your opinion. But seriously, don't get me wrong, I liked Final Fantasy IV. Just not the the story.

Also, I didn't like VIII either - the massive amounts of tutorials turned me off. biggrin.gif


@OP: I suggest the DS version. The voice acting is for the most part, spot on, and the augment system is what let me beat the game.

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Posted: 6th May 2010 22:02

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Quote (Smash Genesis @ 6th May 2010 12:04)
What character development? Each character, with the exceptions of Cecil and Kain, develops about twice over the course of the game.

That is why it is important to note that two developments is quite a leap from the first game's character development!

And I think both characters are rather engaging.

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Posted: 6th May 2010 22:10

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Since FFIV was my first FF, it holds a special place in my heart. Something about the raw style of that game just affects me... I really like the vivid colors used in the game, even though the graphics weren't the best the series has seen. Also, the music is great, FFIV's prelude is my favorite today. The echoey feeling of the music fits the game so perfectly it sometimes sends chills down my spine. About the story, though, I always liked Cecil's internal struggle, as well as his rivalry with Kain. To this day Kain remains one of my favorite FF characters.
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