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To be fair, Ashe's outfit in the game is fairly revealing and fanservice so a swimsuit pic probably isn't that provocative.

Oh, and the emphasis on Fran's being a bunny-girl is way blown out of proportion, I've seen one feminist go so far as to say it was rascist and dehumanizing of African-Americans as well as women.

Be aware that the Viera race was designed for Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, and the GBA does not lend itself extraordinarily well to perpetuating male sexual fantasies. Well, I mean, they're a race made up of entirely females (no idea how that works, must have asexual reproduction), so THAT is appealing to male sexual fantasies. I'm not saying that Fran isn't partly fanservice, but it all seems blown out of proportion. I mean, look at Lulu in FFX! I didn't hear women casting it in an extreme negative light like they do with Fran.

How is Fran a bad stereotype of African Americans? If anything she's more of a bad stereotypical Irish person. Just listen to her voice! -CSM

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Fran has dark skin. My computer is slow, but if you search her on google, you'll see pictures. It's not the darkest of dark skin, but if I was going to assign her any human race (ignoring her ears), it would be of African descent.

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Quote (Baramos @ 11th March 2007 00:18)

I mean, look at Lulu in FFX! I didn't hear women casting it in an extreme negative light like they do with Fran.

Society as a whole finds goth chicks far more acceptable than furries. To that extend, I can sorta understand it. Goth chicks tend to wear corsets. That said, I think the bunny chick's a LOT hotter.

Anyway, my first reaction to this was summed up nicely by Laz. Hell, it's so tame it didn't even occur to me to call it fanservice. That said, I was most intrigued by Josh's comments about the phenomenon in general. The comments made tells me he isn't aware that the 'drawing the line' discussion hasn't already been reached. I've seen all kinds of fanservice for anime shows where the characters wear swimsuits and skimpy outfits. The difference being the characters are underage, and I mean under freakin age man. I'm not just talking 'bout jerk off fanworks either. I'm talking about promotional art and such. Fanservice seems to run the gamut to, so I have no idea where the hell the line is. I just know the majority of what I see described as fanservice is directly what CSM was making a fuss over. I just don't think his particular example fits the bill.

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 11th March 2007 23:07

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Arts

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Twarts

This thread needs more hot pictures of women for me to um, 'lose respect for'.

Okay, so I haven't even played FFXII, but I do know the characters. What's wrong with a chick in a two-piece? You want degrading, try a guy in a speedo. What the heck.

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Arts

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HA! thats funny narratorway!

anyways, ive been checking out this topic and ive decided to add my two cents. personally, ive seen that pic of ashe in the guide (i think it was the guide..) and i really didnt think much of it. yuna, rikku, tifa....well those are just a few who have appeared very scantily-clad and honestly, im cool with it. i dont think that takes away from the character of the character, thats just who they are. kinda like that one scene in ffx2 at the hot springs. the gullwings are just chillin, let them be. video game characters should be allowed to be hot too. so like i said im cool with it, and if youre not, then thats cool too. its just ashe in a bikini, think what you will

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Oh, and the emphasis on Fran's being a bunny-girl is way blown out of proportion, I've seen one feminist go so far as to say it was rascist and dehumanizing of African-Americans as well as women.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. By that logic, Kuja from FFIX is dehumanizing of Caucasian males. After all, both of 'em are scantily clad with animal characteristics...

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I’m gripping at the walls around me
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I’ll be your token of attention
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-Orgy, "Beautiful Disgrace"

Quote (Celes of Blades @ 13th March 2007 20:04)

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Oh, and the emphasis on Fran's being a bunny-girl is way blown out of proportion, I've seen one feminist go so far as to say it was rascist and dehumanizing of African-Americans as well as women.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. By that logic, Kuja from FFIX is dehumanizing of Caucasian males. After all, both of 'em are scantily clad with animal characteristics...

But Caucasian males aren't routinely objectified and marginalized due to their race and gender, whereas women of color are. Portraying black women in particular as animalistic, primitive, or "wild" is one of the oldest stereotypes there is--ever heard of the "Hottentot Venus"?

Do you really think it's just a coincidence that the only dark-skinned people in the game are part animal?

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Quote (karasuman @ 14th March 2007 01:15)

But Caucasian males aren't routinely objectified and marginalized due to their race and gender, whereas women of color are. Portraying black women in particular as animalistic, primitive, or "wild" is one of the oldest stereotypes there is--ever heard of the "Hottentot Venus"?

Do you really think it's just a coincidence that the only dark-skinned people in the game are part animal?

The bit about Kuja was (mostly) sarcastic. ^^; Sorry if that was unclear. My point was more how silly it was for the feminist to get so worked up over a design in a video game. The stereotype of dark skinned females as animalistic isn't something I'm fond of, but I don't think the designers' intentions were 'objectify women of African descent yayz =D'.

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Come with me so I can show you how to live
Burning the candle at both ends
I’m gripping at the walls around me
Don’t complicate it
I’m addicted to this life
I’ll be your token of attention
All my lies come down to this
-Orgy, "Beautiful Disgrace"

Quote (Celes of Blades @ 13th March 2007 20:37)

My point was more how silly it was for the feminist to get so worked up over a design in a video game. The stereotype of dark skinned females as animalistic isn't something I'm fond of, but I don't think the designers' intentions were 'objectify women of African descent yayz =D'.

It doesn't really matter what someone's intentions are when their behavior is blatantly racist and sexist. The "oh, I didn't mean it that way" excuse stopped working a long time ago, at about the same time when we as a society started expecting people not to *be* racist and sexist.

There's a point where the mere fact of not caring about how your use of racial/gender stereotypes comes across is a problem in and off itself. There's a reason why the greasy-haired, hook-nosed, miserly Jew doesn't show up as a villain in Nancy Drew novels anymore, why we at least pay lip service to women being something other than damsels in distress, and why our cowboys don't have subservient Injuns or Chinamen following them around and licking their spurs. Some stereotypes are inherently offensive, and an awful lot of people think that the scantily-clad, animalistic black woman is one of them.

Personally, that picture of Ashe that started this thread kinda disgusts me. Sure, we should show characters in everyday life, but come on. The ONE character in a bathing suit is a woman, and they chose to snapshot "everyday life" for Ashe as her trip to the beach. There's nothing inherently wrong with a picture of a chick in a bikini, but that picture is part of a trend that I'm really getting sick of: routine sexualization of women in just about every context. It isn't just a "design in a video game." It's a reflection of how our culture (or Japanese culture, or whatever) thinks about women, and what our perceived role in life is. Apparently, we're just supposed to be sex objects. How can that not bother you?

For the record, I think FFXII, overall, represented a pretty huge leap forward for the portrayal of women in video games. Fully half the party was female, only one of the women was dressed like a ho, and none of them had annoying co-dependent problems or the habit of sitting back and being rescued. That doesn't mean that there weren't problems with how Fran was portrayed (and how various other men in the game weren't--male Viera were where?) or that the picture of Ashe leaves something to be desired, though.

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This thread just leaves me shaking my head. People, it's just a drawing in a book. Honestly, I didn't even notice where the picture was in the scan. This went from being a *disturbing* picture to a debate over whether people are sexist or not! The pic didn't bother me in the least and it didn't make me think that us girls are being used as sex objects for men.

Like I said, it's just a drawing.

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Well, it's a Japanese game, so I do think it was coincidental the Fran and the other Viera have dark skin. You're basically saying that a country which has been entirely lacking in racial problems between Asians and Africans should have the same notions of Political Correctness concerning blacks that Americans do. You're trying to put areas of PC that Americans and other country's take for granted onto a society that has probably barely even heard about the events that CAUSED the areas of PC. Should they perhaps be educated in these matters so the next FF game can be properly edited? Perhaps. Should they be vilified? Absolutely not.

There aren't any male Viera because it's an entirely female race, which is fanservice and probably offensive to some people. This is where the objectification of women comes into play. Race has not anything to do with it, it is sex. This is where FFXII would probably be considered offensive, along with much of Japanese entertainment.

Fran isn't the only scantily-clad woman in the game. She is however the only scantily-clad dark-skinned humanoid and so therefore must be subject to portrayal rules that Japanese people aren't aware of?

Quote (karasuman @ 13th March 2007 23:13)

Personally, that picture of Ashe that started this thread kinda disgusts me. Sure, we should show characters in everyday life, but come on. The ONE character in a bathing suit is a woman, and they chose to snapshot "everyday life" for Ashe as her trip to the beach.

Basch is wearing a swimsuit too, but I get what you mean. Ashe is in the foreground, and they could have shown her doing any number of other things instead. The odd thing is that she's still dressed more tastefully than Fran is.



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I don't think the game's racist. I'm not sure about sexist; I mean, so many games are anyway, I haven't really noticed. I never thought of Fran being Black with animal traits, but if it offends somebody then that's fair enough.

I could say I'm offended by the way all the Imperials are English. It's a bit of a growing trend now to make evil empires have English accents: the Helgast in Killzone sound English, the Russians in "Enemy at the Gates" sound English (although that is for other reasons too) and now the aggressive imperialists in FFXII have to as well. Do you think that making the Dalmascans American, and the oppressors British, is an effort to stir up some war of independence feeling? If so, that would be unfair. I've not played far enough to see the other empire, but if they sound French...

The point is that this is as good a reason as any to be offended, but I'm really not: it's a game.

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/facepalm

Racist? Sexist?

You guys and gals supporting that notion are being overly sensitive, IMO. The one dude above... Baramos? Yeah. He got it right.

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Well, it's a Japanese game, so I do think it was coincidental the Fran and the other Viera have dark skin. You're basically saying that a country which has been entirely lacking in racial problems between Asians and Africans should have the same notions of Political Correctness concerning blacks that Americans do. You're trying to put areas of PC that Americans and other country's take for granted onto a society that has probably barely even heard about the events that CAUSED the areas of PC. Should they perhaps be educated in these matters so the next FF game can be properly edited? Perhaps. Should they be vilified? Absolutely not.

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Quote (Baramos @ 14th March 2007 01:06)

Well, it's a Japanese game, so I do think it was coincidental the Fran and the other Viera have dark skin. You're basically saying that a country which has been entirely lacking in racial problems between Asians and Africans should have the same notions of Political Correctness concerning blacks that Americans do. You're trying to put areas of PC that Americans and other country's take for granted onto a society that has probably barely even heard about the events that CAUSED the areas of PC. Should they perhaps be educated in these matters so the next FF game can be properly edited? Perhaps. Should they be vilified? Absolutely not.

Just because there aren't a lot of people of African descent in Asia doesn't mean there isn't racism! I'm astounded that you can actually make that connection and think it's true! Africans and dark-skinned Indians are considered "dirty" in China, Korea, and Japan. I'm not just citing studies here--this has been confirmed to me by people who immigrated from each of those countries. People of Chinese/Korean/Japanese descent who have darker than average skin are often insulted by having it implied that their own racial makeup is mixed. Japan may not have had a big Civil Rights movement (which obviously failed if people in the country who did think that racial stereotypes are no big deal), but that in no way implies that they don't have racism. If anyone really thinks it's a coincidence that Fran the animal-woman is black, or that Barret the inarticulate thug was black, you're being willfully naive.

And I can't believe that anyone is actually trying to deny that Japanese culture is sexist. I mean, seriously. Even Japanese people don't deny that their culture is sexist. They, like you, just try to justify it.

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Kara, the guy was in a bathing suit too. How is it sexist?

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Quote (Hamedo @ 14th March 2007 09:09)

Kara, the guy was in a bathing suit too. How is it sexist?

Which character is in the foreground, in focus, dressed all sexy (that isn't exactly a speedo Basch is wearing), and smiling invitingly at the viewer?

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Quote (karasuman @ 14th March 2007 09:17)

Quote (Hamedo @ 14th March 2007 09:09)

Kara, the guy was in a bathing suit too.  How is it sexist?

Which character is in the foreground, in focus, dressed all sexy (that isn't exactly a speedo Basch is wearing), and smiling invitingly at the viewer?

Which character is topless?

This could go on for a long time. Let's just agree to disagree. I don't see the sexism or racism in this. You obviously do.

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Hey guys, I just remembered something. Wasn't FFXII a game?

A game where you spend a good part of the earlier dungeons with some topless guy running around in little more than boxers, and where the female "lead" overcomes the stereotypical "I need my man" fawning persona most female characters exhibit?

Just making sure - I'm under the impression I'm missing the point entirely here, because I'm fairly certain the flip side of the coin is being ignored entirely just to prove a point. A point that also works both ways just as much as it does with the side we're all obsessing over right now. Well, like was said, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree (I never really understood how that saying made any sense )

Personally, I choose to stick to the "killing stuff to gain better items and to make the storyline progress" point of view. It's a lot more enjoyable that way to me, but everyone has their own way of enjoying a game. So long as we DO remember that it's just a game and nowhere as big an issue as some of the IRL stuff plaguing us (if you DO want to feel justified in being angry over the depiction of a race, sex, or other group in a video game, though, look up Custard's Revenge (or something close to that.) It's an old Atari (?) game with some very disturbing sexual themes that are FAR more degrading than fanservice made commonplace in Japan.)

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I'm with those who don't see a problem with the image. (*snips out large off-topic bit*) The way that people are portrayed in art, as in videogames, is fantasy - not reality - and only conveys the "opinion" of a few people, if that.

I would like to point out that it's not always a case of creating something when it comes to art or games. Sometimes, it's like you're tapping into something that already exists, and simply transforming it into something you can share with those around you. For example, a friend of mine designed a pen and paper roleplaying game from scratch, based on a world that, for her, is as real as this world - even if only she and a select few others can train their mind's eye to view it. If someone were to find something offensive in the game's history or descriptions (and there are some things that would undeniably offend some people), that's their problem, not hers - she's simply portraying something that already exists.

That said, I agree with Silverlance.

Quote (karasuman @ 14th March 2007 14:02)

If anyone really thinks it's a coincidence that Fran the animal-woman is black, or that Barret the inarticulate thug was black, you're being willfully naive.

Barret is a Mr T rip. It has nothing to do with racism. I'd also like to mention that there wasn't a single black character in pre-VII games that I know of.

Aside from that, you're completely correct. Japan has a pretty terrible human rights record. I hate to dig it up, but they did basically inflict genocide on their occupied neighbours during WWII. I'd say they were little better than Nazi Germany. Here's all the statistics you could ever wish for.

I'm not saying that the Japanese still harbour this consensus, but you certainly can't say there's been no racial problems between Africans and Japanese.

It is a serious issue though. If having seductive-Ashe sells more games than shut in-Ashe, then there's no doubt they'll keep using it. As has been said, games are just another medium and therefore should be subject to the same criticism. But remember this works both ways. One day we might see games that has a decent hidden message. Still, as SL says, games are good just having dungeons and dragons in them! We need both.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Oh no! a woman in bikini! draw you're pitchforks and let's burn square-enix!!

For ***** sake people! if you're offended by this don't buy the f****** game and just shut the **** up!! Ever walked down a beach? there are bikini's everywhere!!

No really,i mean there only human ,no?and ,oh yeah !It's a game!
What's wrong whit bikini's and a little skin?this ain't the ******* dark ages people!
did you really think that people would buy the game if there wouldn't be a little of this in it?would people buy it if every woman would be a non? the game isn't made for little children but for teenagers and grownups and ****!
so please, it's a great game, it's different then other FF's and it's a far more reallistic game,please leave it alone!

Moderator Edit

Your overuse of **** is incredibly lame. That notwithstanding, your tone here is extremely rude. Childish and inarticulate, but still rude. Shape up.

This post has been edited by karasuman on 14th March 2007 21:12

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Actually, when all is said and done, the Japanese were worse than Germany during WWII. However, I think they, like Germany, have come a long, long way since WWII.

Anyway, I never said there isn't racism in Japan, but you seem to be stating two things that would be conflicting: Japanese people apparently consider dark-skinned people to be dirty, but also wanted to portray Fran as animalistic, primitive, oversexed dark-skinned person? So which type of portrayal do you think they, apparently racists, were going for, the hateful one or the sterotypical one? And don't tell me both, as it was obviously one or the other, as Fran is a fairly static individual in the game's plot. I didn't pick up on either, but I just want to know which one it was supposed to be, as it wasn't clear to me.

Keep in mind I'm not saying one or the other is better than the other, as they're both racist, I just wanted to know your opinion, Kara.

Anyway, back to the main topic, if women find the picture of Ashe to be sexist, then it is sexist. That's usually how something sexist is defined, if women find it offensive, though of course men can find something like that offensive too.

Also, Ziegfried, I don't think the argument is coming from some sort of overly conservative perspective or anything like that.

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Which character is in the foreground, in focus, dressed all sexy (that isn't exactly a speedo Basch is wearing), and smiling invitingly at the viewer?

Asche is actually more clothed than any basic 2-piece bikini, not objectifying women at all. In japan going to the beach is a very normal, casual thing much like in San Diego and other parts of southern California.

now what has surprised me is that people haven't noticed that Asche's actual in-game clothing implies more promiscuity than the art of her in a bikini.

PicA
PicB

Who in reality wheres miniskirts, with openings at the side, knee high(or+) boots, a midriff, and other exotic(or unorthodox) articles of clothing.
That's right Hookers on the sunset strip.

time to face reality a two piece bikini is practical beach wear, her ever-day clothes are not practical.

and in the end, It's just a game, the characters can be dressed however the creators want, japan is somewhat a perverted society, but it is also no uncommon for young women to dress with miniskirts, knee-high boots, and a midriff over there (some form of anime style clothing). Generally japan's culture has nothing against those of darker skin tones, viera are just viera.

and above all else, it's a game that does not include and chauvinistic, racist, or any other kind of taboo bias in the United States.

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No one is perfect, you can look into any culture ever and find instances of oppression, slaughter and stupidity. Not that it's right just because we've all done it, but in the context of it's relation to video games? Racist in making the Viera seem like Black people? Well, whatever it was, if it was meant to be negative, it failed. She came off as a striking rabbit woman who was strong, silent and kicked plenty of ass. Those bastards, making her out to be someone capable of holding her own! Why does there have to be Male Veira? Maybe they're Asexual, you know, like Godzilla was. Maybe they don't reproduce at all, as the forest just kinda grows them out of plants? She could be some sort of mutant-salad bunny lady.

Is it just me or is everyone getting worked up over pixels of people who don't exist and more so over a friggin' bunny-woman, who, last I checked, was not of African descent but rather from some forest where they spoke to trees. If anything, she's closer to a hippy. You can make the argument that, were Fran real, she might be black or that the Veira's design is some allusion to Japanese views of Black people, but I could also make the argument that, were she real, she'd probably be a rabbit and not at all human, but that's pointless as she's not real and this is just a game, so get over it. If we were talking about Grand Theft Auto and how every woman is a prostitute who you can lure into your car, pay to have sex with you, only to kill her when you're done and take your money back, then I'd say yeah, sure that's off the wall and worth saying something about. As is? It's harmless.

Some times people have a tendency of looking too far into things and getting offended far too easily. She's at the beach, she's in a bikini and it's supposed to be "Sexy". What's wrong with that? They're all in the water, it's not like it's gratuitously putting a woman in a bikini in the middle of nowhere and being like "HEY LOOK HALF NAKED WOMAN!" It's not like having Ashe in a bikini automatically turns her into some sexually promiscuous character.

The way I see it, having the women in the video games look attractive and dress in ways that show it off isn't any different from women in the real world who are attractive and dress to show it off. I don't see anything wrong with it in the real world so I don't see anything wrong with it in games. In fact, when I think of video games, especially Final Fantasy, I think of exactly that. Fantasy. Now, other than those of us with strange fetishes or whatever, how many of you can actually claim that in your imaginations, your men and women aren't all based around what you like in a person?

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 15th March 2007 07:03

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