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Caves of Narshe Forums > Final Fantasy VII > Who is the REAL villain of Final Fantasy VII?

Posted by: Chell172 31st July 2011 20:54

We all know how evil and deranged Sephiroth is. Without Jenova, he'd be nothing. But without Hojo, Jenova'd be nothing. But then we have Rufus, carrying out orders elsewhere.

Who do YOU think is the real villain?

I voted for Hojo.

Posted by: BlitzSage 31st July 2011 21:01

I nulled, because I think all of them, in tandem, were the real culprits. All of their decisions allowed the others to continue, and for the world to go through all the troubles in the game.

Posted by: Aeris-Logan 31st July 2011 21:20

I picked Sephiroth. Jenova, to me, is nil. She is helpless in the state that she is in. Hojo doesnt offer too much other than a brain ... Rufus doesnt even offer that.

Posted by: sweetdude 31st July 2011 21:38

I couldn't really say anyone other than Sephiroth. Most of the game is spent chasing Sephiroth, he's the antagonist, and I don't think Jenova or Hojo are the main villain just because they bore Sephiroth or helped him on his way. He comes across as an actor is his own right. If he appeared to be manipulated or seemed like a tool for someone else then maybe it would be different. By the end Hojo is his subordinate.

Rufus isn't even a clear villain. His goals are similar to Cloud's by disc 2, he just goes about it very differently. If it wasn't for Rufus Sephiroth would've destroyed humanity. It took the cannon to open the Northern Crater.

Posted by: Chell172 31st July 2011 21:44

I asked the REAL villain. And without Hojo, there wouldn't be Sephiroth.

And Jenova did all of Sephiroth's bidding, like

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

killing Aeris

and Sephiroth was

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just in that Mako crystal 90% of the game

Posted by: sweetdude 31st July 2011 22:14

Yeah the story's really convoluted but I think the overall basic plot is follow Sephiroth and kill him to save the world. Hojo and Jenova might come in at times but they're not the REAL villain as you say. And about Hojo creating Sephiroth, I don't think that makes Hojo worse just because his actions are the first in a long chain of events. I'd see the villain as being the person who's the main antagonist and is the most important to the story and all the points it raises. I think Sephiroth really fits the bill here. Even if you could say it's Jenova not Sephiroth for most of the game, I don't look at it so literally. The point is that the clones/cells/ghosts whatever look like Sephiroth and it's his memory and his shadow that keeps Cloud and the others going. That's the making of a villain I would say. Also screw the translation.

Posted by: KasperNinja 1st August 2011 05:10

I vote Hojo.It could not be Rufus he does kinda save everyone like he helps kill the Diamond Weapon and also Destroy the Shield so hes not the real villain,Jenova Idk about it.Sephorith would of been fine if Hojo didnt inject Jenova into him before birth in Lucrisea(Sorry for the incorrect spelling for her name)But it is Hojo For sure.I hate even for being made because he stole who vincent was in love with.He created Jenova and injected it into Sephorith,Lucri.,Vincent,and himself.He shot Vincent which made me even more mad at him.So Hojo for sure.

Posted by: BlitzSage 1st August 2011 05:47

Quote (sweetdude @ 31st July 2011 18:14)

Yeah the story's really convoluted but I think the overall basic plot is follow Sephiroth and kill him to save the world.

I agree with you about the story being convoluted. The game would be much higher on my list if it perhaps made Rufus a more prominent villain honestly, rather than focusing on Sephiroth. It's strange to me, because they really begin to establish Rufus and Sephiroth at the same time, but they only give him a few scenes to truly describe his character. The story follows the same progression as FFVI, but FFVI explains the change in focus more concretely.

While Sephiroth is the main villain, I think it should've been an equal sharing of that role between Sephiroth and Shinra.

Posted by: Rangers51 1st August 2011 14:00

Quote (Chell172 @ 31st July 2011 16:44)

I asked the REAL villain. And without Hojo, there wouldn't be Sephiroth.

And without Hojo's parents, there wouldn't be Hojo. So, by that logic, wouldn't you think that Hojo's parents are the true villains?

In seriousness, though, FF7 isn't like, say, FF9, where

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

all of a sudden at the very end there's a giant creature who comes essentially out of the blue to be the final villain.

There's a lot more nuance to it than that, regardless of whether any Sephiroth you follow throughout the game is real, a clone, a hologram, or whatever. I'm with Sweetdude - no matter what the twist is to the story, there's a form of Sephiroth that is the antagonist for at least two-thirds of the game, and even if you haven't played it for ten years, like I haven't, Sephiroth is the one that sticks with you.

Posted by: Chell172 1st August 2011 14:36

Wow. My thoughts have totally changed.

Mukki is the real villain.

No seriously, I now think Jenova is. I mean, she/it killed tons of Cetra, powered SOLDIER, carried out many of Sephiroth's deeds, and she

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killed Aeris, seeing as Sephiroth was controlling Jenova during that scene

, and it/she massacred, to my knowledge, everyone in the Shinra Building from the floor you find her/it on and up.

I actually was gonna add Mukki in the poll, but I didn't.

Posted by: Glenn Magus Harvey 1st August 2011 17:00

I voted Hojo.

I'm surprised you didn't put President Shinra as a choice, if we're talking about lineages of evil via cause-and-effect.

Posted by: Chell172 1st August 2011 19:23

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 1st August 2011 18:00)

I voted Hojo.

I'm surprised you didn't put President Shinra as a choice, if we're talking about lineages of evil via cause-and-effect.

I didn't put President Shinra as an option because he was only in the game for about one or two hours. After he dies, he is almost never mentioned, and Rufus has completely taken his place. But about cause-and-effect, he just ordered people around, and the people below him did their own evil things.

Posted by: Dr. Delinquent 1st August 2011 19:34

I voted Jenova. However powerless she was in the game, the entire plot is pretty much her fault. Without Jenova, the games wouldn't have happened. Their world would have been so drastically different without her arrival that there's no telling if any of the characters would have existed.

Posted by: Glenn Magus Harvey 1st August 2011 19:40

Quote (Chell172 @ 1st August 2011 14:23)

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 1st August 2011 18:00)

I voted Hojo.

I'm surprised you didn't put President Shinra as a choice, if we're talking about lineages of evil via cause-and-effect.

Okay, fine, then put Heidegger and Scarlet.

(jk)

Posted by: Chell172 1st August 2011 19:46

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 1st August 2011 20:40)

Quote (Chell172 @ 1st August 2011 14:23)

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 1st August 2011 18:00)

I voted Hojo.

I'm surprised you didn't put President Shinra as a choice, if we're talking about lineages of evil via cause-and-effect.

Okay, fine, then put Heidegger and Scarlet.

(jk)

Actually, my favorite scene involving either of them was where you slap Scarlet's whiny face on top of the Sister Ray.

I so totally kicked her butt/slapped her face.

Posted by: sweetdude 1st August 2011 20:05

Quote (BlitzSage @ 1st August 2011 06:47)

The game would be much higher on my list if it perhaps made Rufus a more prominent villain honestly, rather than focusing on Sephiroth.

Well, being a massive VII fan I would say this, but anyway I really like the way the Shinra characters are played in the game. I don't think they're meant to be straightforward villains, they're more like a misguided humanity with the right intentions. A bad means to a good end. Jenova is a space travelling alien conqueror, nothing less. So Rufus' agenda is to protect himself and by extension humanity because he takes the role of autocrat. I like the way the planet is presented as a victim, yet it produces the Weapons which look to kill entirely innocent people (exemplified by Marlene). Rufus becomes a saviour by fighting the Weapon that attacks Junon and Crystal Weapon when it attacks Midgar. If it wasn't for Shinra these cities would be destroyed. Although on the other hand if it wasn't for Shinra the planet probably wouldn't be wanting to destroy the cities. But then Rufus had nothing to do with the state the world's in. He's only been President for about a month at the most. It's a really hard situation to determine villains and heroes. If he was an outright villain I think this angle would be lost. That's just my take on it, I don't disagree with you that Rufus should have had more screentime.

Posted by: BlitzSage 1st August 2011 20:57

Quote (sweetdude @ 1st August 2011 16:05)

It's a really hard situation to determine villains and heroes. If he was an outright villain I think this angle would be lost. That's just my take on it, I don't disagree with you that Rufus should have had more screentime.

I also like the ambiguity, but I think it could've been helped, as you and I seem to agree, with more of a balanced presence of Sephiroth and Shinra, or Rufus. I like the idea that they're misguided, but their actions have ultimately caused all of this. Their main fault is that they didn't take the planet's threat seriously, and it's likely that they had to continue to deal with the Weapons for many years to come (unless if you beat Emerald Weapon in the game, lol). But it's one of the things that, despite the lack of technology, still makes me lean towards favoring FFVI and CT in that regard. They seemed to get that storyline right: people with misguided intentions leading to negative consequences. Ultimately, the groups in that game, like Shinra, are just out for themselves. They're not trying to destroy the world, but their actions ultimately allow for those situations to unfold. That being said, I'm a big fan of the game still, mainly because they did try--and to a degree they succeeded--in making something very interesting and unique. The ambiguity they were shooting for was a difficult thing to attempt, because it's hard not to become convoluted.

Posted by: BoysBoysBoys 1st August 2011 21:02

Spoilers throughout the whole post.

Hojo orchestrates the majority of Gaias problems.

In Before Crisis Hojo is Fuhito's inspiration, and mimics SOLDIERs through Ravens. Hojo also put the Zirconiade materia in Elfe which is what Fuhito uses to try to kill all life forms on Gaia to give the planet a break.

In Crisis Core Hollander works on Project G to rival Hojo's Project S. Also this is when the Nibelheim events take place, and Cloud and Zack are experimented on.

In Final Fantasy VII he captures Aerith, it's revealed he's Sephiroths father, and tries to give him more power with the mako cannon.

In Dirge of Cerberus it's revealed he Scarlet and Heidegger are the reason for Deepground, and that he indirectly still controls Deepground.

Just a quick summary... more complex things like the Clones as well.

Posted by: FinalFantasyAoibh 18th August 2011 15:16

Well Before reading I voted Rufus Shinra. Now I'm not so sure.

Yeah what about his father, President Shinra? He was the one who founded Shinra right? So he drained the planet, almost killing it and created the whole company - gave Hojo his job and unleashed the crazy scientist. So President Shinra obviously wanted to have a very powerful company and so created the Turks and SOLDIER.

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There was all the experimenting with Mako and Jenova cells etc. with the Jenova project and we know all about that.

Does that not make him the top villain, the one who started it all because of greed?
If you go with that point, there is less of a blame on Rufus because he took over from his father but he still willingly continued on when he could have stopped it all, so he does shoulder some of the blame and is still a villain but he didn't start it. However, yes, Rufus did try and make up for some of it, so it's kinda half and half there.

So what about Hojo? Countless experiments of his are dotted around the game.

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He created Sephiroth

Major evilness. The proof -

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What he did to Vincent and Lucrecia, Zack and Cloud. - Not as much for Lucrecia, it depends if you believe she willingly went along with the idea and claimed to "love" Hojo. Even still he would have known how this experiment would have had a high risk of hurting her. Or if you believe she was forced into it and believe she was raped well then he's more of a villain.
But if it wasn't for President Shinra, Hojo couldn't have had access to the labs and Jenova and all that technology and would not have created Sephiroth.

Sephiroth. Well, I certainly hate him

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for killing Aerith,

who doesn't? But if you played Crisis Core you see "normal" Sephiroth when he didn't know of his creation. You see how he became insane. Not really his fault then is it? He was like the Turks in the sense that they killed innocent people but were all under instruction of President Shinra. No one considers the Turks villains here. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think I saw anyone calling the Turks villains. So you can't say he was a villain before.
Now you can argue here he becomes a villain but I think not. I believe it wasn't his fault. Wouldn't you become corrupt if you knew you were created as an experiment? To serve a company fuelled by greed? So he hated everything and everyone and well, became insane! He wanted to take over the world and rid it of humanity like Jenove tried to. It's understandable I think (I mean Hojo as a father? that alone is enough to drive anyone crazy!

) but it still leaves a gap to call him a villain.

So I can conclude - I don't know. Everyone is gonna have their own real villain.
For me it's mainly Rufus' father and Hojo.

You're probably going to find alot of holes in my arguments but still that's what I think!

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 19th August 2011 11:12

I'd say:hojo is the real villain or perhaps shinra or rufus.
If it was't for hojo rufus and shinra,sephiroth wouldn't be so messed up

Posted by: FinalFantasyAoibh 19th August 2011 23:29

Oh yes and my point for the fact that Jenova can't really be the villain.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

She/It was an alien of some kind that tried to kill the planet but the Cetra stopped her.

No one knows anything about Jenova other than that really and in the game she didn't try manipulate Sephiroth and give out her cells for experiments. She was in a frozen state when the cells were taken from her by Shinra and used.
So how can Jenova be the villain? Well I don't think she can.

So much thinking!!

Posted by: sweetdude 20th August 2011 01:59

If it wasn't for Sephiroth, Hojo and Shinra wouldn't have messed up Sephiroth. And he's the villain.

Posted by: Dr. Delinquent 20th August 2011 02:08

Quote (FinalFantasyAoibh @ 19th August 2011 18:29)

Oh yes and my point for the fact that Jenova can't really be the villain.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

She/It was an alien of some kind that tried to kill the planet but the Cetra stopped her.

Except for the whole part where Sephiroth dedicated everything he did to her. What was he doing, exactly? Well, nothing short of attempting to carry out Jenova's mission! You also fight Jenova multiple times. (Clones or no- It's still her.) Lastly! If she didn't land on the planet.... No modified Sephiroth, and the Cetra would still have been around... Meaning no Shinra Co, thus no opportunity for Hojo either (Assuming his respective ancestors would still have led to him with the full Cetra civilization still roaming the planet).

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 20th August 2011 10:32

Quote (Dr. Delinquent @ 20th August 2011 02:08)

Quote (FinalFantasyAoibh @ 19th August 2011 18:29)

Oh yes and my point for the fact that Jenova can't really be the villain.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

She/It was an alien of some kind that tried to kill the planet but the Cetra stopped her.

Hojo was Insane.

What he did to sephiroth and what he did to his real mother lucrecia was something a normal man would think twice.

Despite the jenova cells driving him nuts in the end,there was something visually wrong with him beforehand,you can tell in crisis core.

Who are the people who think they have the right to play god? answer me this and you will get your answer to what hojo is.

Posted by: Dr. Delinquent 20th August 2011 18:24

Quote

I'm not saying he wasn't a nutcase, or that he wasn't a villain, I'm just saying this: Would he be anything without Jenova? 2000 years prior to FFVII, she opened the door to allow the world to become what it was, and then returned during VII to finish the job through Sephiroth, and then again in Advent Children.

If not for her, Gaia would not exist in the same way as it did in the game. There would be no corruption in the Lifestream, the Cetra would still be protecting the planet, and there would have been no opportunities for Shinra or Hojo to become what they did.

She tried to destroy the world 3 times in her time on the planet, though twice she had to work through Sephiroth.

Posted by: Magitek_slayer 20th August 2011 18:39

Yeah.

I thought that jenova was dead wasn't she? suppoedly sephiroth was controlling her the whole time.

Posted by: Dr. Delinquent 20th August 2011 21:10

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 20th August 2011 13:39)

Yeah.

I thought that jenova was dead wasn't she? suppoedly sephiroth was controlling her the whole time.

It's open for interpretation, though I believe she is alive. Read this, specifically the nature section, where it states: "As stated in Professor Hojo's Jenova Reunion Theory, once Jenova's cells have been separated from the main body, they will eventually reunite into one again. If they are inside a host body, they can influence its mind and body to join the Reunion."

Posted by: CearaIvory 10th September 2011 04:57

I was unable to choose. I think the interesting thing about Final Fantasy is that there never really just one real villain. For example, in FFX, you knew the villain was Sin from the beginning, they said it. However, you learn later that you also have Seymour, the Yevonites, and Yu Yevon to contend with. Sephiroth was the primary antagonist of the story but we also know that he was very much a victim of his circumstances. Did Jenova choose Earth on her own to conquer, or did she land on the Earth quite by accident and simply take advantage of the situation? Was Hojo truly mad or did the Jenova cells around him constantly or did the betrayal of his wife Lucrecia cause him to go insane? Was insanity simply in the genes, since obviously Sephiroth is also nuts in the main storyline. There's too much to the story itself to really say He or She is the real villain because they are all villains and yet at the same time they're not.

Posted by: Chell172 10th September 2011 13:48

Quote (Dr. Delinquent @ 20th August 2011 03:08)

Quote (FinalFantasyAoibh @ 19th August 2011 18:29)

Oh yes and my point for the fact that Jenova can't really be the villain.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

She/It was an alien of some kind that tried to kill the planet but the Cetra stopped her.

They weren't clones--Jenova cells regenerate, and Sephiroth had torn off her arm, head, and some other part of her and threw them at you. They regenerated and procceded to fight you with the greatest boss theme of all time.

Posted by: Dr. Delinquent 10th September 2011 17:51

Quote (Chell172 @ 10th September 2011 05:48)

Quote (Dr. Delinquent @ 20th August 2011 03:08)

Quote (FinalFantasyAoibh @ 19th August 2011 18:29)

Oh yes and my point for the fact that Jenova can't really be the villain.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

She/It was an alien of some kind that tried to kill the planet but the Cetra stopped her.

The part where I said "Clones or no- It's still her." refers to the small faction of people that think the multiple Jenovas you fight throughout the game are the Sephiroth clones. I was just saying, that regardless of what people think the Jenovas came from, my point still stands.

Posted by: TrueBOSS 30th November 2011 08:40

Quote (BlitzSage @ 1st August 2011 05:47)

I also have wanted to see Rufus and Shinra playing a more prominent role.
It felt like the big invincible world ruling corporation wimped down a lot once sephiroth showed up and it always kind of felt like the game changed from being a tactical battle against an immense evil corporation to a wild goose chase looking for sephiroth. Though I still liked the way the game turned out. I'd be interested to see how the game would have turned out if the Shinra staying as the prominant villain.

Posted by: Sephiroth 11th December 2011 11:37

I get the feeling like OP is not searching for the most commonly chased and talked about villain. It seems to me like he is shooting to find the mastermind of the plot.

Okay, it's been years since I've played this game so this is probably a shot in the dark, but I remember Hojo being the mastermind behind all of this; creating Sephiroth and soldiers like him. Hojo wasn't the "real villain" because he was the antagonists father. The point was that he intentionally made Sephiroth a very powerful experimental puppet and he sent forth his creations to create all the chaos which exists in the game.. It seems sort of like the Albert Wesker story to me; scientist from a corporation goes mad and unleashes a virus in order to gain power while causing destruction. Albert Wesker did everything and sacrificed everyone he felt he needed to in order to "become a god". Hojo experimented on his own son in the womb for similar reasons.

I almost feel obligated to at least call Hojo the "Mastermind". He orchestrated all the experiments with Jenova's cells. He created beings like Sephiroth who became powerful, while others went insane and dove off cliffs, and he used the money and resources of the Shinra company to do it. Hojo is the overall cause of the conflict.

Posted by: Archer_in_Mideel 16th January 2012 22:11

Personally, Sephiroth is the villain mainly because his actions and ill will were at the heart of the game's story. Also, he still poses a threat to the world and in a sense still serves as the antagonist for the compilation. ( AC, CC for example) I base this off of the fact that his cells remained in the lifestream all that time and managed to regroup, not to mention his whole "I will never be a memory" dealie which, to me, implies that he will rise again when society has once more forgotten of him just like with Jenova.

Posted by: JCpennY420 17th January 2012 04:31

Sephiroth is definately the REAL villain, nuff said.

Posted by: Allen Hunter 18th January 2012 06:35

Hojo > Jenova > Sephiroth

Posted by: FinalFantasyAoibh 22nd February 2012 15:09

Quote (Dr. Delinquent @ 20th August 2011 02:08)

Quote (FinalFantasyAoibh @ 19th August 2011 18:29)

Oh yes and my point for the fact that Jenova can't really be the villain.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

She/It was an alien of some kind that tried to kill the planet but the Cetra stopped her.

Okay that's very true as is the Jenova reunion theory point....hmmm so yeah Jenova being the villain? Probably the best answer because she's the start of a chain of events that created many misguided and/or evil people.

Posted by: Kjelfalconer 23rd February 2012 22:40

Hmm... While merely conceiving to Sephiroth hardly makes Hojo the villain, I have to say that injecting his unborn child with cells from an alien monstrosity, causing pretty much every issue that happens in the game after they leave midgar has to count for something.