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Kain- Traitor or just Mistunderstood ?

Posted: 2nd December 2009 10:02

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[ FFIV spoilers below ]


When played through the original Snes FFIV for some reason got the idea that Kain was the lost and misunderstood type figure and got the feeling that he was a little lost/ screwed up and he of course was being mind- controlled by evil..

But just brought the DS remake and just got up to bit before Cecil is about to turn into a Paladin and Kain seems to be coming across in this version to be a right jerk. Can't remember if in the Snes original if he ever thought about taking out Rydia during the bomb incident near the beginning of the game and he just doesn't really seem to care about Rosa being abducted by Golbez at all..

Think in the snes original he seemed secretly worried about her like the game was giving off some hints that Kain was not cool with Rosa being abducted and it even seemed like Kain wanted to take out Cecil and then free Rosa from Golbez and be off with her like Kain he wanted to be the Hero and Rosa's lover.
Kind of like how Riku wanted to be the Hero and be Kairi's lover and take out Sora from the original Kingdom Hearts game..

But in the DS remake it seems like Kain likes the idea of Rosa being abducted and he even wants to murder Cecil. The DS remake is making Kain seem like some kind of secret sadist of some kind and a real/ actual backstabber and not just some hurt misunderstood young character..

Heard that the DS remake is the Japanese original translated into English and that later on Kain was just faking being hypnotized by Golbez where in the snes original Kain flops down and then later begs Cecil for forgiveness..

Memory can fail/ play tricks on you sometimes so was Kain kind of screwed up on both versions of FFIV ? Is he faking being hypnotized in both versions ?
Is Kain really just a huge massive faker or is Kain just messed up inside and needs a little love and support and forgiving ??


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Posted: 2nd December 2009 17:19

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When I played FF4 DS I didn't get the idea that Kain was behaving differently. He always proposes killing Rydia, for example, but the language was rather roundabout in the SNES version.

Quote
Kain: I'm afraid we must do away with her too.

What I did find striking about the DS version was that the factors working on Kain seemed to grow more and more evident as the game progressed. Golbez too. But anyway.

Regardless of version, I don't think it's any easier to insist that Kain is a victim of outside influences than it is to insist that willfully betrayed Cecil. That's what's great about Kain. happy.gif

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Posted: 2nd December 2009 22:27

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Misunderstood? Well, was The Original Cain misunderstood as well as some books have pointed out? I mean, it's hard to say. It really depends on how you'd prefer to view the situation.

That's why Cain was also a Byronic hero.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 2nd December 2009 22:30

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Posted: 9th December 2009 02:18

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Quote (Shiva Indis @ 2nd December 2009 17:19)
When I played FF4 DS I didn't get the idea that Kain was behaving differently. He always proposes killing Rydia, for example, but the language was rather roundabout in the SNES version.

Quote
Kain: I'm afraid we must do away with her too.

What I did find striking about the DS version was that the factors working on Kain seemed to grow more and more evident as the game progressed. Golbez too. But anyway.

Regardless of version, I don't think it's any easier to insist that Kain is a victim of outside influences than it is to insist that willfully betrayed Cecil. That's what's great about Kain. happy.gif

Oh yeah true kind of noticed too that everything that was blocked out of the Nintendo censorship in the 90's is now all there in the DS Version of IV.
And nothing is round-a-about-ed anymore..

Have been playing the game throughout more and really he is just like Riku [ Or Riku is just like him since Kain/ Cain was created before he was.. ] Kain is a good character but sadly his jealously and bitterness for Cecil and not being able to win Rosa's love his making him seem like a evil jerk but really he is actually secretly perfect [ would make a good Friend/ Prefect boyfriend for Rosa/ great Fighter] but jealously and his grudge for Cecil destory's that and poisons Kain's "perfectness "..

Kain is just really teaching the player that jealously can spoil and can ruin chances of love and can destroy your friendships. So Kain is like the secret hero in disguise and we learn good things from him for every bad thing that he does..

@ Mogmaster- The Bible Cain ? Have heard some versions where he is doomed forever to wander alone to pay for the sins that he has done [ spoiler- like the FF IV Kain in the ending ] and have heard some versions where again like the FFIV Kain- Bible Cain is the secret Teacher in disguise and his story is to teach readers that jealously bitterness for other people and hate can spoil and poison your life and[ *again*] like the the FFIV readers learn good things for the bad things that he does in the book..

Basically- seriously replace CECIL- with ABEL and you will have what Square was interested in/ reading at the time of making FFIV >_>'';


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Posted: 19th December 2009 22:56

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i think he was quite misunderstood...

i never really thought he would do something to knock cecil back if no one tried examining his brain half the time.
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Posted: 22nd December 2009 23:56

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Kain is probably one of the best FF characters ever in terms of depth and development. He definitely betrayed Cecil & co., but he was misunderstood as well. While he initially comes off as being a jerk, the player really is able to develop a sense of sympathy towards the guy over the progression of the game: his actions may not have been right, but they become understandable. A very good character indeed.

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Posted: 23rd December 2009 04:45

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Well, in response to Rosa being abducted by Golbez: Kain wanted that to happen so he could be closer to Rosa. That's only adds to the theory of him being misunderstood.

I do think we might be looking too much at only the negative qualities of Kain and not enough at some of the good things he's done:
He stuck up for Cecil at the beginning of the game - which forced to him to go with Cecil to the village of Mist. He also willingly abandoned his home town with Cecil (after some slight pressure, that is) and was about to fight back about Baron.

Furthermore he fought the mind control from Golbez when Cecil was protecting the crystal in Fabul. He stopped himself from killing Cecil - so obviously he didn't want to truly kill him.

Kain certainly has a rivarly with Cecil, no argument there. That said, Kain is still one of Cecil's friends and feels shame for his actions even if he was mind controlled while performing then (made evident by his comments after Rosa is rescued from Babil, pre-Barbaricca).


I do believe the DS version makes him seem a bit more of a hard-ass. The characters are all fairly emotionless in terms of speech in the SNES (US) version. Few of the characters convey different personalities, and the few that do tend to be very 'generic'.

I don't think he was misunderstood, nor was he willingly betraying Cecil. As MogMaster pointed out that Cain is a byronic hero, I'd have to say that Kain is as well. Especially compared with the ever-compassionate Cecil.

What a wonderful character design though. Probably one of the best in the Final Fantasy series.

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Posted: 1st June 2010 05:59

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Kain was mentally weak if you didn't realize but he redeems himself after he tries to kill you like 5 times

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Posted: 11th June 2010 19:57

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Quote (legendary Soldier @ 31st May 2010 21:59)
Kain was mentally weak if you didn't realize but he redeems himself after he tries to kill you like 5 times

It wasn't just being mentally weak, it was that force trying to control you finding a spot to exploit (namely, Kain's jealousy for Cecil having Rosa). Golbez said as much about himself, his hatred and jealousy of Cecil as a young boy allowed Zemus to exploit it and garner control of the young Golbez. One of the things that's discussed during the game is about how "any one of us could have been controlled". Rydia snarkily added something like, "it's surprising that Zemus didn't use you" to Edge. So yeah, exploiting a weakness in the form of hatred and jealousy.

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Posted: 11th June 2010 20:38

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Quote (Kame @ 11th June 2010 15:57)
Quote (legendary Soldier @ 31st May 2010 21:59)
Kain was mentally weak if you didn't realize but he redeems himself after he tries to kill you like 5 times

It wasn't just being mentally weak, it was that force trying to control you finding a spot to exploit (namely, Kain's jealousy for Cecil having Rosa). Golbez said as much about himself, his hatred and jealousy of Cecil as a young boy allowed Zemus to exploit it and garner control of the young Golbez. One of the things that's discussed during the game is about how "any one of us could have been controlled". Rydia snarkily added something like, "it's surprising that Zemus didn't use you" to Edge. So yeah, exploiting a weakness in the form of hatred and jealousy.

Exactly right. That is the message, that anybody can be controlled, even Cecil. Yes, he is controlled too. The king forces him to train as a dark knight, and steal all of the crystals. So, that seems to be a recurring element.

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Posted: 18th July 2010 20:23

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kain tells them what happened in the game happy.gif he says that he was under controlled but he sorta wanted to do these things cause he wanted rosa close and to himself
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Posted: 21st September 2010 06:22

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Rosa is definitely a strong motivation for Kain. When Cecil thanks him for agreeing to help in his fight against Baron, his reply is that he isn't doing it for Cecil's sake. When he is about to finish Cecil off, Rosa enters and Kain immediately becomes ashamed. Even when Golbez directly orders him to take the crystal, Rosa is able to make him hesitate until Golbez takes her. In the cutscenes with Rosa, Kain, and Golbez in the Tower of Zot, he demands to kill Cecil instead of Milon, and later boasts to Rosa that he'll prove he's better than Cecil.

Mind you, I don't think any of this makes his actions more excusable, just more understandable. I still wonder how much, if at all, he would have done to save the world had Rosa died early in the game. After everything they've all been through to save the world, the final shot of Kain is on Mt. Ordeals, apart from everyone.

I have to go with traitor, though writing this reminds me I have the sequel on my Wii and has made me curious about his treatment in that game.

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Posted: 23rd September 2010 20:03

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Quote (Kame @ 11th June 2010 15:57)
It wasn't just being mentally weak, it was that force trying to control you finding a spot to exploit (namely, Kain's jealousy for Cecil having Rosa). Golbez said as much about himself, his hatred and jealousy of Cecil as a young boy allowed Zemus to exploit it and garner control of the young Golbez. One of the things that's discussed during the game is about how "any one of us could have been controlled". Rydia snarkily added something like, "it's surprising that Zemus didn't use you" to Edge. So yeah, exploiting a weakness in the form of hatred and jealousy.

Yeah, basically that's it. He felt jealous of Cecil, and evil forces just took advantage of that to mind-control him.

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Posted: 21st October 2010 20:51

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Aww, I love Kain. I'm of the personal opinion that if someone's being controlled, then anything they do during that period goes against the controller, not the actual person performing it. And he does it all for love, love I tell you! And he's a sodding dragoon! *cough*more bias*cough*

But on a more rational note, if you think about it, if Kain had been the one to land with Rydia, and Cecil had been separated from them, chances are that Kain would have been a paragon of good, and Cecil would likely have been a soulless dark knight by the time they got to Fabul, his mind cracked open by Golbez along the seam of his fear of what the dark blade would do to him, and the bad time thrown in by the bucketful.

So really, it was just cruel fate and scripting that caused Kain to end up in Golbez' clutches.
...And thank god it was the one who could shake it a bit.

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Posted: 23rd December 2010 11:05

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That's up to debate, but I'm fairly sure he was jealous of Cecil, and that made him easier for Golbez to brainwash.
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